Well, the day started out $hitty

Rocket Scientist said:

Mr. Lush's theory is to back cut the gears. That would then eliminate any side thrust on the circlips. Makes sense to me. If the gears are trying to stay engaged due to their shape, the circlips are just along to keep the unselected gears from wandering around.

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True but what if your dogs hit the face of the spokes on the female gear? Then it slams the fourth gear over into the third gear and the cir-clip? As for once they are engaged I see how it helps even as they start to engage the angle will help pull them in. I think in the design there should have been another clip and thrust washers between 4th and third output (this would also allow you to utilize various shim thicknesses to locate each gear for the most dog contact). Of course the more I look at the spiral snap rings I am wondering why they did not choose them. They can't be that much more money.
As for the Sonax split ring keepers they sure would be strong but how much modification you would need so you can still fit the dogs in over the shims and snap rings. They look stout for sure.

DEcosse said:

Don't see much wrong with this one either - a bit darker but still nothing obviously burned.
Do the Isolation test described above to confirm but I'm betting is just fine.

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Thanks man ! I feel better now

warp9.9 said:

True but what if your dogs his the face of the spokes on the female gear Then it slams the fourth gear over into the third gear and the cir-clip? as for once they are engaged I see ho it helps even as the start to engage the angle will help pull them in. I think in the design there should have been another clip and thrust washers between 4th and third out put. (this would also allow you to utilize various shim thicknesses to locate each gear for the most dog contact) Of course the more I look at the spiral snap rings I am wondering why they did not choose them. They cant be that much more money.
As for them Sonax split ring keepers they sure would be strong but how much modification you would need so you can still fit the dogs in over the shims and snap rings. They look stout for sure.

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Do you think my problem was singularly caused by the clip being installed backwards or is there something more sinister at play here

I agree with having another clip between 3rd and 4th would have been a nice touch. Even if I stomp shifted it into 4th (I didn't) and knocked the clip off, I don't think it would show all the wear it has where it contacts the splines. It looks like it was a catastrophe waiting to happen for awhile. My bike had the upgrade put in it before I got it. I know they didn't do most of the job. They probably reused that snap ring besides putting in on backwards.

Rocket Scientist said:

I agree with having another clip between 3rd and 4th would have been a nice touch. Even if I stomp shifted it into 4th (I didn't) and knocked the clip off, I don't think it would show all the wear it has where it contacts the splines. It looks like it was a catastrophe waiting to happen for awhile. My bike had the upgrade put in it before I got it. I know they didn't do most of the job. They probably reused that snap ring besides putting in on backwards.

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Yes but I also figure since the clip was in backwards it did not help plus the amount of thrust movement that is optimum is unknown to a simpleton like myself. I suspect less would be better but you still need some for oil flow, the question is how much and of course on this set having two gears and nothing to divide the middle is that then three times as much or will the stack height clearance of two sides be sufficient??? Again beyond my knowledge and might be classified

Rocket Scientist said:

And only went downhill from there. Took off in the rain to go to annual "Blessing of the Bikes". Didn't get to wet. It stopped drizzling around noon. 1st pic is the blessing, I didn't pan around but there were quite a few bikes there considering the weather. As with most years "not a sky in the cloud". Saw Martin @Jabol there. Saw a couple other R3's from a distance. The 2nd pic is on the way after the gearbox $hit it's dress big time. I went to down shift to pass a car and ground really bad like I didn't press the lever down far enough. Tried to go back up to 5th and it started grinding really bad and feeling like it wanted to lock up. Got off to the side and idled it about a mile to get off the highway. On the off ramp it tried to lock again real hard so I didn't try to ride it anymore. My brother came and got us and took us home so we could get the trailer. Had to use the engine to get the bike into the trailer. Tranny let me know it wasn't happy about it. Guess I'll starting the gearbox odessy. Might see if I can find a low mileage engine to steal the trans out of. I don't beat this thing and go way above and beyond with maintenance and this is the 2nd time the drive train has f_cked up and tried to lock up at high speed. Starting to wonder about this thing as a long distance vehicle. Time to go eat ice cream.

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Not good!!

From what I can see from the photos, I would hazard a guess that several issues are involved. One is square male dog faces and likely square walls in the mating "spokes or windows"; two is the male dogs and slots don't exactly match in radial orientation (one dog engages in its female slot slightly before the others so that under a load the gear "cocks" on the shaft which then puts all thrust load on one point of the snap ring, thus each time the gear is engaged the dogs may engage a different slot which results in the high point "walking around the retaining ring over time and three that the snap ring groove is shallow considering the contact surface is minimal due the splines. Therefore all the thrust load is put on small parts of the snap ring rather than on the entire face. The current depth may be "correct" by the book but because of the reduced thrust surface it leads to rapid ring wear.

The fix may involve more than one thing. Have both drive and driven gears back cut which should correct radial "clocking" and uses torque to pull the gears together rather than push them apart. Secondly, I would have the shaft groove(s) re-cut deeper for the next size smaller diameter ring and use a Spiralox retainer.

A tool post grinder can be used to re-cut the shaft grooves, and a reverse tapered carbide end mill with an end corner radius used to cut both slots and dogs for the back cutting, or send them to one of the gear companies to have them do the work. Having just the male dogs cut would be about as useful as putting in a new snap ring, replacing the gears with used ones, and calling it "fixed."

My bike is "talking to me now" and I am afraid it is developing a similar problem. So I will be tearing mine down in the near future, hopefully before she lets loose. If you could send me your broken gears and their mates for examination, I would be glad to confirm or falsify my hypothesis. I may be able to cut the shaft grooves for you as well if you can't get it done locally.

PM me if interested.

@Speedy having seen your bike, my guess you're going to have a bunch of people interested. I would really like to see Triumph contact you, and make another kit available. Of course, these days, no company is willing to admit anything they don't have to, for fear of the ensuing lawsuits.

In any case, between you and a few others, perhaps we could put our own kit together, and thus modified, maintain a decent resale value for the machines, and in any case, increase the number of folks who show up for RAA events, confident their machines will make the complete journey.

Joesmoe said:

@Speedy having seen your bike, my guess you're going to have a bunch of people interested. I would really like to see Triumph contact you, and make another kit available. Of course, these days, no company is willing to admit anything they don't have to, for fear of the ensuing lawsuits.

In any case, between you and a few others, perhaps we could put our own kit together, and thus modified, maintain a decent resale value for the machines, and in any case, increase the number of folks who show up for RAA events, confident their machines will make the complete journey.

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Thus getting back to a posting I put up a few days ago, you can call Triumph or any other manufacture all you want and complain nine times out of ten it will fall on deaf ears, now with this being a safety issue everyone who has or had this problem should be contacting the correct authorities and who knows we might get a recall for the bikes.

I WHOLE HEARTEDLY ENDORSE THIS CALL FOR CONTACTING NHTSA -- please see the link to Consumer Reports for suggestion on filing a complaint.

And when you're ready, go here for the complaint: NHTSA

scot in exile said:

Thus getting back to a posting I put up a few days ago, you can call Triumph or any other manufacture all you want and complain nine times out of ten it will fall on deaf ears, now with this being a safety issue everyone who has or had this problem should be contacting the correct authorities and who knows we might get a recall for the bikes.

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