Dead battery/tenders

Gimlet said:

The stock battery is 10.5 AH. I was looking at a 16 AH Yuasa GYZ16H. It's close in size but I won't be able to get it to fit. I don't understand whether you get more cranking power from the same HA with a lithium. I also don't know if there are any limitations with the bike's charging system. Got a bit more research to do I think.

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I don't blame you. It's certainly worth doing your homework first cos they aint cheap.

BTW.....the biggest one the y offer is this one at 25Ah.........look at the price !

Gimlet said:

The stock battery is 10.5 AH. I was looking at a 16 AH Yuasa GYZ16H. It's close in size but I won't be able to get it to fit. I don't understand whether you get more cranking power from the same HA with a lithium. I also don't know if there are any limitations with the bike's charging system. Got a bit more research to do I think.

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AH (Amp-Hours) is total storage but isn't always related to CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) which is the issue you're really looking to improve performance with. When I was poking into the possibilities for a Lithium battery for my Rocket I seem to recall they all had plenty of CCA, but were questionable on AH (or maybe I have that backwards).

EskimoPie said:

AH (Amp-Hours) is total storage but isn't always related to CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) which is the issue you're really looking to improve performance with. When I was poking into the possibilities for a Lithium battery for my Rocket I seem to recall they all had plenty of CCA, but were questionable on AH (or maybe I have that backwards).

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Exactly.

Lithium has a lower total energy density (total energy per unit volume), and LiFePO4 is even worse than Lithium Ion, but that's not the whole story because lithium batteries can use nearly all of their energy without suffering damage, whereas depleting a lead-acid (especially one that isn't deep cycle) will damage the battery and reduce its capacity. In practice, LiFePO4 and lead-acid have about the same usable capacity in a given volume. The lead-acid might be rated at 18 Ah, but you can only use about 6-9 Ah of that without causing problems (more for deep cycle), while a LiFePO4 can be discharged by nearly 100% of its rated capacity without significant issues.

LiFePO4 excels at three things over lead-acid:
- Specific energy (total energy per unit mass).
- Longer lifetime/more cycles.
- Higher CCA for a given size.

Einar said:

Exactly.

Lithium has a lower total energy density (total energy per unit volume), and LiFePO4 is even worse than Lithium Ion, but that's not the whole story because lithium batteries can use nearly all of their energy without suffering damage, whereas depleting a lead-acid (especially one that isn't deep cycle) will damage the battery and reduce its capacity. In practice, LiFePO4 and lead-acid have about the same usable capacity in a given volume. The lead-acid might be rated at 18 Ah, but you can only use about 6-9 Ah of that without causing problems (more for deep cycle), while a LiFePO4 can be discharged by nearly 100% of its rated capacity without significant issues.

LiFePO4 excels at three things over lead-acid:
- Specific energy (total energy per unit mass).
- Longer lifetime/more cycles.
- Higher CCA for a given size.

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So my best option then is a LiFeP04 that will fit the existing battery tray but have a higher CCA even if the AHs are the same?

Gimlet said:

So my best option then is a LiFeP04 that will fit the existing battery tray but have a higher CCA even if the AHs are the same?

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I've used them before (and the Tiger 1200s come with one) and never had a problem. Can't say the same for the lead-acids, which in my experience always suddenly fail with no warning. The quality of the battery matters greatly--it needs a quality BMS otherwise it'll be prone to sudden and/or early failure. It should perform undercharge protection, overcharge prot., overheat prot., and cell balancing.

If and when the new battery in my Rocket fails, I'm looking at probably replacing it with one of the following:
- Antigravity AG-ATX12-RS RE-START, 6.1 Ah / 360 CCA
- Shorai LFM21A6-BS12, 7 Ah / 315 CCA

At 6-7 Ah, they're roughly equivalent to about a 16 Ah lead-acid when it comes to usable capacity. The lead-acid still contains more energy but using more than half of it will damage it. The main thing is to use a charger designed for Lithium batteries if you keep your bike(s) hooked up to one. (I use the Harley-Davidson four-bike charger, which has individual options for Lead-Acid, AGM, and Lithium for each of its four outputs).

Edit: Looks like there's an Antigravity ATX12-HD RE-START that also fits with 480 CCA and 8 Ah. Hmmm...

Geez who invited the NASA guys to the conversation
Can we please keep it to this battery good, this battery bad

Einar said:

I've used them before (and the Tiger 1200s come with one) and never had a problem. Can't say the same for the lead-acids, which in my experience always suddenly fail with no warning. The quality of the battery matters greatly--it needs a quality BMS otherwise it'll be prone to sudden and/or early failure. It should perform undercharge protection, overcharge prot., overheat prot., and cell balancing.

If and when the new battery in my Rocket fails, I'm looking at probably replacing it with one of the following:
- Antigravity AG-ATX12-RS RE-START, 6.1 Ah / 360 CCA
- Shorai LFM21A6-BS12, 7 Ah / 315 CCA

At 6-7 Ah, they're roughly equivalent to about a 16 Ah lead-acid when it comes to usable capacity. The lead-acid still contains more energy but using more than half of it will damage it. The main thing is to use a charger designed for Lithium batteries if you keep your bike(s) hooked up to one. (I use the Harley-Davidson four-bike charger, which has individual options for Lead-Acid, AGM, and Lithium for each of its four outputs).

Edit: Looks like there's an Antigravity ATX12-HD RE-START that also fits with 480 CCA and 8 Ah. Hmmm...

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Just to clarify, the battery in my Ducati has never failed outright. I'm just convinced it doesn't have the cranking power necessary to spin up such a high compression engine fast enough to properly engage the sprag clutch and protect it from wear and failure. The battery in it now is fairly new.
An added complication with the Ducati is that they run one of two types of regulator-rectifier. Which type you have determines which sort of battery you can use, so I'm told by Ducati experts. So I need to look at that as well.

It's relevent here because the Rocket battery has never failed either. But a couple of times it's been unable to turn the engine - just a click and the dash lights go out. Again, when put on a charger it's says it's at near full charge, which suggest's it at the limit of its capacity for such a large engine, so I'm thinking they could both use higher cranking power and to achieve that from a battery that will fit the tray, it seems lithium is the only option.

As far as the tender goes, during the riding season the bikes will be ridden every week. In winter the batteries come off the bikes and take turns on a single tender, usually a 24 hour charge once a week or so. My Triumph dealership did tell me not to leave the battery on the tender all the time and it was actually better to do periodic 24 hour charges so it can do a health check and a top up if required. Though when I had my Harley I used to leave it plugged in all the time right through winter because it was a PITA to remove the battery, and that was fine.

dfresh said:

Geez who invited the NASA guys to the conversation
Can we please keep it to this battery good, this battery bad

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That's what we're doing...
Well, I hope so. I thought this was relevent to the thread.

Most definitely, just a little humor on my part.

Pulled the original battery on my 23 GT, was surprised to see it was a YUSA that's a good brand. I was a 1.2 amp battery. Replaced it with a 1.6 amp YUSA.

I had a lithium iron phosphate battery on mine but it was ****ing with the other electronics on the bike. Swapped it for an AGM battery and it's been smooth sailing since.