Engine Idle Question

[Penner]

This is what the german manual says.
For some reason there is more information than in the english version.
The part I underlined says that you can reset adaptions to works specs if you do it with ignition on but engine not running.
(probably when engine is cold. but I am not sure)

Anyway I would recommend fitting stock O2 sensor again.


Schnelladaption
Einleiten einer Schnelladaption:
1. Schließen Sie das Diagnosegerät an, wählen Sie ABSTIMMUNG EINSTELLEN und anschließend
ADAPTIONEN ZURÜCKSETZEN (siehe Benutzerhandbuch Triumph Diagnose-Anschlussgerät).
Dadurch wird die Ausführung einer schnellen Adaptionsroutine von etwa 5 Sekunden erzwungen.
Damit dies möglich ist, MUSS der Motor laufen, normale Betriebstemperatur haben und im
geschlossenen Regelkreismodus betrieben werden.
Unter anderen als den genannten Umständen,
zum Beispiel wenn der Motor nicht läuft, findet dieSchnelladaption nicht statt. Sta
ttdessen werden unter Umständen Standardwerte geladen, was dann
die Ausführung einer normalen 12-minütigen Adaptionsroutine erforderlich machen kann.
Hinweis:
• Wird das vorstehend beschriebene Schnelladaptionsverfahren bei ausgeschaltetem Motor
und eingeschalteter Zündung angewendet, werden die Adaptionen auf die (nicht angepassten)
Standard-Werkseinstellungen zurückgesetzt. Anschließend ist eine vollständige 12-minütige
Adaptionsroutine erforderlich.
• Bei beiden Verfahren wird lediglich der Leerlaufbereich angepasst. Der Teil- und
Volllastbereich kann nur angepasst werden, wenn das Motorrad unter Last betrieben, d. h. auf
der Straße gefahren wird.

 

[Penner]

That is why the O2 sensor should be connected and active.


Page 8 of 18
Forcing Adaption to Take Place
If the read out indicates that the motorcycle
is not adapted, the following will force the
system to make adaptions:
1.
Ensure the coolant is at ambient temperature
2.
Start the engine and allow it to warm
WITHOUT TOUCHING
THE THROTTLE
until the cooling fan comes on.
3.
Leave the engine to idle for a further
12
minutes.
NOTE: As an alternative to the above proces
s, connect the diagnostic tool, scroll to
ADJUST TUNE and select RESET ADAPTIONS. Th
is will force a fast adaption routine to
take place in around 5 seconds. For this
to happen, the engine MUST be running, it
must be at normal operating temperature an
d in closed loop control mode. Under any
other conditions fast adaption will not take
place and may cause default values to be
loaded, which may then require a normal
12 minute adaption routine to be run.
IMPORTANT NOTE: This function only applies to Daytona 650, Rocket 3, Sprint
ST 1050, Speed Triple 1050 and Daytona 675, but not Daytona 600
.
Note: Closed loop will activate at approximately 75
°
C. Fuel system status menu
location: Diagnostics, Current data.

 

[Claviger]

Interesting about the ECU swap.

The only pertinent thing you guys haven’t swapped over is the wiring harness and motor lol. Stubborn gremlin you seem to have gotten as a passenger.

So if we throw out the fueling as a problem because the pulse widths are right, it’s just the low idle that’s a problem, it sounds like you’ve done the idle arm adjustment bit to the method covered in the manual.

The difference in MAP signal is consistent with the throttle being held open less, resulting in lower RPM idling.

At this point it can only be an internal engine issue (highly unlikely) or a hardware adjustment issue on the TBs to my mind. Digging through service manual to find anything that you’ve not covered already.

 

[Claviger]

uneECU TPS and ISC Stepper Adjustment

On the “Tests” page of TuneECU there is a menu option labeled “Adjust ISCV”. It provides a means to check and adjust the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) and ISC (Idle Speed Control) Stepper Motor. TuneECU user information does not provide detailed instructions for this so I’ve posted a description based on my 2006 Sprint ST 1050 with Keihin ECU. I’ve made no attempt to highlight differences for other models. At the end there is additional information for about the secondary throttle used on the Triumph Daytona 600, Daytona 650 and Rocket III.

TuneECU can be used to check and adjust TPS and ISC in three basic steps each accessed by double-clicking “Adjust ISCV” in turn:

• Move the throttles to a fully closed position and check TPS voltage. Adjust TPS position if necessary.
• Drive the stepper motor to fully opened and check TPS voltage. Adjust stepper arm/lever if necessary.
• Reset adaptions. This resets adaption values to their start point. The engine must be run to “learn” new adaption values.

Update: from Version 1.9.10 of TuneECU resetting adaption values is separated from the “Adjust ISCV” process. It no longer occurs automatically so resetting adaptions must be initiated separately using the “Reset Adaption” command (or from the menu bar select “ECU> Reset Adaption”). With this change it is now possible to check the voltage without initiating adaption reset.

OK, that’s a basic description. For those who want to know more read on and I’ll describe at length with photos and other information.

TPS and ISC adjustments are not regular maintenance items and should only be necessary if those components are replaced or found to be operating out of range (that might be sign of imminent failure). If you’re like me you’ll fiddle anyway out of curiosity and a desire to get the settings bang-on.

Checks can be carried out by simply hooking up TuneECU and reading the output voltages without removing the tank, airbox, etc. Just be sure that the throttle cables have sufficient slack so they don’t interfere with the throttles moving to the fully-closed position. I checked mine when the whole area was open and throttle cables disconnected for other maintenance.

The first step is to get a baseline TPS voltage by driving the throttles to the fully-closed position. With TuneECU connected to the bike and ignition on (but engine not running) go to the “Tests” page and double click “Adjust ISCV”.


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Confirm the “Adjust ISCV?” request. The Cyl 3 MP dial will change to a TPS Voltage indicator. TuneECU will send a command to move the throttles to the fully-closed position. If these checks are being performed because a new stepper motor has been fitted check the clearance between the idle speed control lever and the roller on the throttle cam. Clearance should be 0.5mm.


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With the throttles still in the fully-closed position the TPS voltage should be 0.60V (+/- 0.02V). If the voltage is outside the range 0.58V – 0.62V adjustment is made by rotating the TPS, located on the left side of the throttle bodies.


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With the screws slackened off slightly the TPS is moved until the required 0.60V is shown on the TuneECU display. The TPS is very sensitive to movement so check the voltage again after re-tightening the screws. Avoid over-tightening the screws – the specified torque is only 3.5Nm so be careful.


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If all is OK double-click on “Adjust ISCV” again. TuneECU will send a command to drive the stepper motor to the fully-open position. The TPS voltage should now be the previous reading plus 0.15V. In my screenshot the previous reading was 0.60V so now I was now looking for a reading of 0.75V. A tolerance of +/- 0.05V is allowed so a voltage range of 0.70V – 0.80V is acceptable.

Note: the factory manual for my Sprint 1050 (Keihin ECU) says "On pressing the validation key, the diagnostic tool will send a command that drives the throttles to the fully open position". That is incorrect; only the stepper motor is driven to the fully-open position (thanks to surya for clarifying that in an earlier thread).


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If adjustment is required move the adjuster nut to set the position of the stepper arm/idle speed control lever. Be aware that this will change the clearance between the idle speed control lever and the roller on the throttle cam that was measured earlier. The 0.5mm clearance should correspond with 0.75V TPS reading. If they do not correspond then a decision must be made to set one or the other. This setting will affect the throttle position for engine starts so if you experience starting issues with 0.75V set then I’d suggest going back and adjusting the stepper arm to the correct clearance.


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When all the correct numbers are achieved double click “Adjust ISCV” again. This will automatically start the “Reset Adaption” sequence – the same process required after a new tune is loaded to the ECU. This does not apply new adaption values; it simply resets them to their start point. To “learn” new adaption values the engine must be run to establish settings for throttle position and fuel trims to achieve correct idle speed control.
Update: from Version 1.9.10 of TuneECU resetting adaption values no longer occurs automatically. Resetting adaptions must be initiated separately using the “Reset Adaption” command (or from the menu bar select “ECU> Reset Adaption”). Resetting adaption values should not be necessary if no adjustments were made.

Adaption cannot begin until the engine reaches normal operating temperature of 90ºC. The whole process can take 10 - 15 minutes during which time the idle speed may be erratic. When adaption is complete the “TPS” indicator at the bottom of the TuneECU screen will turn green. Adaption is a continuous process during normal operation but using “Reset Adaption” is a method to force adaption to take place.
The factory manual says “Several forced adaptions may be necessary to fully adapt an individual motorcycle”.

Another method to force adaption to place is often referred to as the “12 minute tune”. To force adaption this way:

1. Ensure the coolant is at ambient temperature
2. Start the engine and allow it to warm WITHOUT TOUCHING THE THROTTLE until the cooling fan comes on.
3. Leave the engine to idle for a further 12 minutes.

 

[Claviger]

More Information

The TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) is located on left end of throttle body assembly and does exactly what the name implies – it senses throttle position. The ECU provides a 5V feed to the TPS and the voltage returned by the TPS signals throttle opening angle to the ECU. The 0.6V that we set is a throttle closed reference voltage only – you may not see this reading during normal operation. Do not confuse the term “throttle closed” with our normal understanding of throttle grip closed. When the throttle grip is closed the throttles are still open slightly to maintain idle. On my 1050 Sprint TPS voltage ranged from the baseline 0.60V to 4.11V with the throttle wide open.

At small throttle openings fuelling is determined by rpm and MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure). Above 6% throttle the system transitions to fueling based on engine load (measured by rpm and throttle position) so obviously it’s important that the TPS readings are correct. Proper TPS adjustment is a physical process - if the TPS voltage reading is wrong the TPS must be moved.

The ISC (Idle Speed Control) Stepper Motor, located on right end of throttle body assembly, will adjust throttle position to maintain target idle speed and increase throttle opening when the engine is cold.


Additional Information for Models with a Secondary Throttle

The following applies to Daytona 600, Daytona 650 and Rocket III. Those models have a second throttle to optimize torque by maintaining intake airflow speed. Like the primary system the Secondary Throttle has a sensor (Secondary TPS) and an actuator (Secondary Stepper). The Secondary TPS can be checked using TuneECU and, if necessary, adjusted in a similar way to the previous description. There are some important differences so the following notes have been added to assist those who want to carry out TPS checks or adjustment on bikes equipped with a Secondary Throttle.

As mentioned before TPS and ISC adjustments are not regular maintenance items and should only be necessary if those components are replaced or found to be operating out of range. I have not carried out this procedure so these notes are based on information contained in the service manuals for the Daytona 600 and Rocket III with practical input from Dazz84. Thanks go to him for doing the legwork running back and forth to his D600 to answer my questions.

Location of Components - Rocket III


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1. Primary TPS
2. Secondary TPS
3. Primary Stepper Motor

On the Rocket III the Secondary TPS is at the front end of the throttle body assembly while the Secondary Stepper Motor is located between throttle bodies for No. 1 & No. 2 Cylinders. The Primary TPS is mounted on the rear end of the throttle body assembly aligned with the lower throttle spindle. The Primary Stepper Motor is located at the front end of throttle bodies alongside the Secondary TPS. The Primary TPS can also be identified by its shorter cable.

Checking and Adjustment

Primary and Secondary TPS voltage checks can be carried out with the fuel tank and airbox in place. Any further checks to verify correct operation or make adjustment will require tank and airbox removal to gain access to the throttle bodies.

I recommend checking the secondary TPS first. In TuneECU the last step in the “Adjust ISCV” process will reset adaptions. We want that to happen after all adjustments have been made so it makes sense to check the Secondary TPS before reaching that stage.

Update: from Version 1.9.10 of TuneECU resetting adaption values is separated from the “Adjust ISCV” process and no longer occurs automatically.

Secondary TPS

When the ignition is switched on the secondary throttle is moved to the closed position. With TuneECU connected select the "2nd Throttle" command on the "Tests" page. This will cycle the Secondary Stepper through its full range from closed to open and back to the closed position. This test is to verify correct operation of the Secondary TPS through its full range of operation.
With the Secondary TPS in the closed position we can check the voltage. Now here’s an important difference from the information I gave earlier. The secondary TPS voltage is not displayed on the dashboard on the “Tests” page the way the Primary TPS voltage was (as illustrated earlier). To see Secondary TPS voltage we look in the “Sensors” column on the left of the “Diagnostics” page. Under the label “Throttle” values for throttle position % and voltage will be displayed with the 2nd line showing readings for the second throttle, as highlighted below
(thanks to Dazz84 for the screenshot).


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Primary TPS

To check and, if necessary, adjust the Primary TPS and ISC Stepper follow the steps I described earlier for my Sprint. The process is the same although components will be in different locations depending on which model you’re working on.

In TuneECU click "Adjust ISCV" on the "Tests" page to move the primary throttles to a fully closed position and check TPS voltage. If necessary adjust to 0.60V (+/- 0.02V) by rotating the Primary Throttle Position Sensor. On the D600 & D650 it’s the one with the black connector, on the Rocket III it’s the one with the shorter cable. The TPS is very sensitive to movement so check the voltage again after re-tightening the screws. Avoid over-tightening the screws – the specified torque is only 3.5Nm so be careful.

Click "Adjust ISCV" again to drive the Idle Speed Control Stepper Motor to the fully extended position. The primary throttle will now be partly open. Check the TPS voltage in this new position. It should be the previous reading + 0.12V. If our TPS was spot on we'd be looking for 0.60V + 0.12V = 0.72V (tolerance is +/- 0.05V). If necessary adjust using the nut on the stepper motor.

A final click on "Adjust ISCV" will initiate an adaption reset. This will return adaption values to the start point. You need to run the bike to establish new values. Bikes without O2 sensor do not learn new trim values but an adaption reset may still have some benefit by allowing the system to calibrate throttle closed position and idle speed control.

Update: from Version 1.9.10 of TuneECU resetting adaption values no longer occurs automatically and must be initiated separately using the “Reset Adaption” command (or from the menu bar select “ECU> Reset Adaption”). Resetting adaption values should not be necessary if no adjustments were made.

 

[Claviger]

Posting that to ensure you've the correct procedure for adjusting the Idle speed control arm when using TuneECU. I've used the above on both of my triumphs and 1oldbull's, and it works perfectly.

Use the "reset adaption" to baseline the adaptive values in the ECU, but you shouldn't need to allow for the adaption (12 minute tune) since you don't have the o2 sensor connected.

Additionally the 0.5mm clearance he calls out I have never even checked or paid any attention to, simply getting the voltages to 0.6 and ensuring the opening voltage is near 0.75 has always worked with no issues, I think my bike was 0.6/0.72 and bulls was 0.6/0.76.

 

[cootertwo]

WoW! all this stuff makes me think the old Lucas stuff wasn't so bad after all..... just sayin! Ahhh, the good old days of points, condenser and a carb. No meters etc. just read the plugs to adjust fuel ratio, and tinker with the main jets.

 

[warp9.9]

Other then compression testing have you verified valve timing? Also Paul didn't you have a gear position sensor problem? Just thinking out loud

 

[Claviger]

WoW! all this stuff makes me think the old Lucas stuff wasn't so bad after all..... just sayin! Ahhh, the good old days of points, condenser and a carb. No meters etc. just read the plugs to adjust fuel ratio, and tinker with the main jets.

I can trouble shoot my bike faster with a laptop faster than anyone could even get their tools out of the toolbox to adjust old school stuff

Paul’s bike is down to some super obscure hardware error or user error (sorry not insulting you guys, but it does happen to the best of us).

 

[Speedy]

Try disconnecting the battery. This will force the ECU to re-boot. Next reset the ISCV correctly and then the adjust TPS to spec. Reset adaptation and then fire her up. If the problem is gone just check that the TB sync is still good.

If problem persists, pull the air filters and open the secondary throttle blades if they are not open so that you can see the primary throttle blade positions. The gaps should be visibly the same. If not, and you had to adjust one way off when syncing before then that may indicate which cylinder is a problem. (A piece of MIG welding wire works as a great gap gauge.) Ignition coils can function at higher speeds but be erratic at idle or low loads. A TB boot could be cracked or leaking at the boot to head joint. You can put a vacuum gauge on one cylinder and see if the reading is similar to the others. A small one way check valve in the line leading to the gauge (available at most auto parts stores) will let the vacuum gauge "capture" the highest value. Simply plug that cylinder's port on the triple tee for the MAP sensor. Different readings between cylinders can point to the problem cylinder.

I suspect that re-booting the ECU will resolve the issue. The R3 ECU is sensitive to voltage changes and may also have a software bug that it can't recover from when certain operating conditions occur. Yours is not the first Rocket to have an idle gremlin.

Side note: The MAP reading on the R3 can be far lower than 630 and she will run just fine, actually better than if it is higher. With timing and fuel adjustments they will run at 490 @ 850 rpm and tick over smooth and steady.

Also, the value shown below the idle % in Tune ECU is the number of counts the idle control stepper motor is from home. Thus the greater the count the farther the stepper had to adjust to hold the programmed idle rpm. Hint; too high and the stepper can't physically extend further. Below 25 counts, the idle rpm may stay above the programmed value as the stepper can't retract further than to 0. This value changes as the ECU actively manages idle speed. So, if that value is changing much and the idle rpm is not, there is a problem or the converse is true as well. The throttle cable can be adjusted too short so it acts as the idle stop, or the TB linkage may be stuck, etc.​