sleeves
Nitrous
Hi Kenneth, thanks we had both our R3 parked next to each other with Pauls running and displaying using the POD300 and mine plugged into the laptop. I can confirm that the systems were working and adjusting. We also did a base reset on them, wiped all trims and reloaded maps.
We are currently erring towards Penners last post re the MAP, getting pretty certain its something to do with this. There's a big advantage to having two bikes (one running well and one not) and a spare bike we can swap parts off in fault finding. We will keep everyone updated but Paul and I cannot spend time working on it during the week due to work loads. As the bikes rideable and during normal riding the AFR's are good at least Paul can get out for a ride, apart from when there's a big storm hitting like now.
I get what you mean about firmware issues though as recently we had two pieces of equipment not talking and corrupting each other due to firmware differences, took ages to sort.
Thanks.
sleeves
Nitrous
sleeves
Nitrous
Right here's my up date as promised.
We still have not fixed the issue. Today we have...
1. In Tune ECU we set all engine temp idles to 1100rpm, bike still idles at 600 to 700rpm runs very rich AFR 10:1 at the above revs.
2. Swapped entire fuel injection system. (includes Injectors,TPS, Idle Stepper Motor.) No Change.
3. Changed MAP Sensor. No Change.
4. Checked and cleaned Crank Pos Sensor no issue.
5. Plugs, leads and caps have been changed but not the issue.
6. Swapped ECU and installed new map (still had swapped injection system). Bike still wont idle at the 1100rpm we had set across all temp ranges now too.
To my mind the ECU should receive a signal from the crank sensor indicating current RPM, then the idle stepper motor should move the primary throttles to a position that achieves this ECU specified target rpm, making small trims for MAP sensor values, AT sensor values and Baro sensor values. Correct?
@Claviger has suggested changing the barometric pressure sensor doing this after lunch.
We think if we fix the idle we'll sort the AFR at the same time as, as the revs pic up (manually) the AFR cleans up to the set values and we're thinking that the overly rich running at the 600rpm range is just a limitiation of the fuel injectors (like a minimum fuel dose) and the gas flow may be pulsing past the WBO2 sensor.
More suggestion please as we're running out of ideas short of swapping the engine
We still have not fixed the issue. Today we have...
1. In Tune ECU we set all engine temp idles to 1100rpm, bike still idles at 600 to 700rpm runs very rich AFR 10:1 at the above revs.
2. Swapped entire fuel injection system. (includes Injectors,TPS, Idle Stepper Motor.) No Change.
3. Changed MAP Sensor. No Change.
4. Checked and cleaned Crank Pos Sensor no issue.
5. Plugs, leads and caps have been changed but not the issue.
6. Swapped ECU and installed new map (still had swapped injection system). Bike still wont idle at the 1100rpm we had set across all temp ranges now too.
To my mind the ECU should receive a signal from the crank sensor indicating current RPM, then the idle stepper motor should move the primary throttles to a position that achieves this ECU specified target rpm, making small trims for MAP sensor values, AT sensor values and Baro sensor values. Correct?
@Claviger has suggested changing the barometric pressure sensor doing this after lunch.
We think if we fix the idle we'll sort the AFR at the same time as, as the revs pic up (manually) the AFR cleans up to the set values and we're thinking that the overly rich running at the 600rpm range is just a limitiation of the fuel injectors (like a minimum fuel dose) and the gas flow may be pulsing past the WBO2 sensor.
More suggestion please as we're running out of ideas short of swapping the engine
Last edited:
scot in exile
Living Legend
have Paul try a CES System or better still a Carpenter system
the coolant temp sensor will really screw with the bike, not sure on how much a new one is but it is a pain in the arse to replace as the oil tank has to come off.
the coolant temp sensor will really screw with the bike, not sure on how much a new one is but it is a pain in the arse to replace as the oil tank has to come off.
sleeves
Nitrous
We've now done the Barometric Pressure Sensor with no change, good suggestion and worth a go.
Also did the AT Sensor and have decided our rich mixture is a false lead as once we swapped the sensor (was cooler and not in a filter) the bike AFR was exactly the same as my bike as a comparison at the same air temps so think this is just due to us sitting there idling too long and getting the AT sensor too hot, odd but Ithought it would have leaned out as the temp increased?
Have increased the idle (but still cant get 1100, 100rpm being our target so we know quickly if changes have worked) by the following.
1. Manually adjusting 7mm idle stepper nut till motor runs at setting in Tune ECU at set temp (1100rpm above 75C).
2. Performed Reset Adaption.
3. Performed TPS and ISM reset
4. This Got bike to increase revs slightly.
Repeated above and it was better again but was now only up to around 800 to 850rpm.
Manually adjusted the 7mm ISM nut to again read 1100rpm.
I then changed the RPM target in the ECU to be 850rpm.
Restarted the bike and "Hey Presto" 650rpm again.
We had then had enough for the day and manually adjusted the idle using the ISM nut to 850rpm and Paul went home.
Also took screenshots of Tune ECU page with Paul's and my Bike running to see the differences
Paul's Page The Throttle section here concerns me with the 99%
My Page (Bike runs Mint ignore 2ndry TPS fault cannot seem to get rid of).
Ignore below double up incompetance
Also did the AT Sensor and have decided our rich mixture is a false lead as once we swapped the sensor (was cooler and not in a filter) the bike AFR was exactly the same as my bike as a comparison at the same air temps so think this is just due to us sitting there idling too long and getting the AT sensor too hot, odd but Ithought it would have leaned out as the temp increased?
Have increased the idle (but still cant get 1100, 100rpm being our target so we know quickly if changes have worked) by the following.
1. Manually adjusting 7mm idle stepper nut till motor runs at setting in Tune ECU at set temp (1100rpm above 75C).
2. Performed Reset Adaption.
3. Performed TPS and ISM reset
4. This Got bike to increase revs slightly.
Repeated above and it was better again but was now only up to around 800 to 850rpm.
Manually adjusted the 7mm ISM nut to again read 1100rpm.
I then changed the RPM target in the ECU to be 850rpm.
Restarted the bike and "Hey Presto" 650rpm again
.We had then had enough for the day and manually adjusted the idle using the ISM nut to 850rpm and Paul went home.
Also took screenshots of Tune ECU page with Paul's and my Bike running to see the differences
Paul's Page The Throttle section here concerns me with the 99%
My Page (Bike runs Mint ignore 2ndry TPS fault cannot seem to get rid of).
Ignore below double up incompetance
sleeves
Nitrous
Also
May I have a clear description of the Reset Adaption and how it relates to the TSP/ISM reset?
May I have a clear description of the Reset Adaption and how it relates to the TSP/ISM reset?
Claviger
Aspiring Student
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2014
- Messages
- 6,934
- Location
- Olympia Washington
- Ride
- '21 Z H2, '14 R3R, '02 Daytona 955i
Sleeves,
So look at injection pulse width between the two bikes, they’re nearly identical. Fueling is being controlled properly, so let’s move to the next three factors. The AFR sensor be ****ed, if the injector pulse with is the same, the fueling is the same, and the problem lies in the air supply.
1: Compression - test it, I had a feeling it was this upon initially reading the original post. If a hole is down on compression you’ll definitely see it on a wide band.
2: Ignition - if you’ve new plugs with good gap and all three coils are good move on.
3: Air - Don’t stress the not reaching 1100 RPM, but it should at least idle in the 850-900 range without issue. This makes me suspect IACV stepper motor as the key culprit. A control: swap on a known good Throttle Body assembly, my money is on this fixing the problem with the low idle.
The 99% value... you’ve a sensor backwards. The main TPS and secondary TPS are physically interchangeable, however they work inverse internally. At max voltage the MTPS is read by the ECU as 100% but at max voltage the STPS is read as 0%. It appears that you’ve got a MTPS sensor installed on the STPS location.
I do not think that has anything to do with the idle low issue however.
Side Note: At the very low RPM he’s idling at you’ll start to get some strange effects because of the low air velocity and very long times for each of the 4 cycles of running. 640 is not far above the lower limit before it’ll stall out (around 550-570 in my experience).
So look at injection pulse width between the two bikes, they’re nearly identical. Fueling is being controlled properly, so let’s move to the next three factors. The AFR sensor be ****ed, if the injector pulse with is the same, the fueling is the same, and the problem lies in the air supply.
1: Compression - test it, I had a feeling it was this upon initially reading the original post. If a hole is down on compression you’ll definitely see it on a wide band.
2: Ignition - if you’ve new plugs with good gap and all three coils are good move on.
3: Air - Don’t stress the not reaching 1100 RPM, but it should at least idle in the 850-900 range without issue. This makes me suspect IACV stepper motor as the key culprit. A control: swap on a known good Throttle Body assembly, my money is on this fixing the problem with the low idle.
The 99% value... you’ve a sensor backwards
. The main TPS and secondary TPS are physically interchangeable, however they work inverse internally. At max voltage the MTPS is read by the ECU as 100% but at max voltage the STPS is read as 0%. It appears that you’ve got a MTPS sensor installed on the STPS location. I do not think that has anything to do with the idle low issue however.
Side Note: At the very low RPM he’s idling at you’ll start to get some strange effects because of the low air velocity and very long times for each of the 4 cycles of running. 640 is not far above the lower limit before it’ll stall out (around 550-570 in my experience).
phar2slo
Living Legend
have Paul try a CES System or better still a Carpenter system
If these to blokes have exchanged the complete throttle bodies and not got it sorted I'm pretty sure pulling them up and out of the way to get to that temp sensor won't be apita if it fixes the issue.
Best of luck.
Claviger
Aspiring Student
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2014
- Messages
- 6,934
- Location
- Olympia Washington
- Ride
- '21 Z H2, '14 R3R, '02 Daytona 955i
