2011 R3T Completely Dead

Bedifferent · Jul 16, 2015

DEcosse said:
We've been through this before - There is NOTHING on the bike's electrical system that connects electrically to the frame
What YOU are doing is a 'short-cut' to improve your ENGINE grounding, it does absolutely zero for any other electrical component.
Engine ground is predominantly for the starter, spark plugs and the Oil Pressure and Neutral lights - everything else reports via the wiring system to the battery negative
What you are doing, as opposed to directly improving the ground to the engine directly, is to connect a short wire to the frame, then have the frame connection to the engine complete that circuit.
That means painted surfaces, dissimilar metals etc come into play. Do you notice this? Most likely not, just not good practice - especially when its just as easy to connect directly to the engine since having the frame itself being grounded is completely irrelevant

As for the comment in the manual - I believe you are referring to the GENERIC section (who knows how many eons ago that std claptrap was first penned) on page 1:14 that makes that reference to frame; I invite you to please enlighten/educate me (sincerely, not sarcastic) to any system element that connects electrically to the frame. That statement has no basis in regard to what is actually ON the Rocket (or frankly any other modern Triumph)

This is image of ground cable I found on another R3 site discussing the ground cable mod:
The big diameter is battery negative to engine; the smaller is to the negative distribution system
This on a standard - again, not sure if that is the same for the Touring
But for sure, however the main scheme connects at the battery end (whether directly crimped into lug, separate lug or like this) the engine ground end is irrelevant

Yes, we have been through this before and my comment was not an attempt to rehash it again. I do not disagree with what you have said and I quote.... "It does absolutely zero for any other electrical component. Engine ground is predominantly for the starter, and the Oil Pressure lights - everything else reports via the wiring system to the battery negative". I am not trying to disclaim anything you have said.

My intent was strictly to provide another ground point for any additional accessories that I might add (rather than load the battery terminal with connections) and to provide additional ground strictly to help with starting. The picture I posted was to show the negative ground wire (unfortunately my additional ground wire was in the picture) and there did not appear to be a pigtail attached to it. However, it was not the best picture to show it even if it was there. Perhaps it would have been less offensive to you if I had just cropped the picture and posted this shot to see if we could see the pigtail.

DEcosse · Jul 16, 2015

dobro said:
So the ignition switch and ALL lights are grounded through the small branch on that neg cable?

Correct

... If the loose connection was at that small branch instead of at the engine ground could it have caused the problems I described?

Yes - however messing with your key would be unlikely to resolve that; it does remain a possible point of contention, but is quite separate from the connection at the engine.

.... accepted that the problem was the ground after the mechanic described how loose it was .... .

I believe they genuinely found that loose ground and had a Eureka! moment.
As I said, it is positive that they found this, it would have caused other issues.
However this would not cause the symptoms you described. It would not interrupt those circuits previously mentioned (most recognizable being the lights)
Again, please try for yourself - disconnect it COMPLETELY and see what happens.
The only way that could have any effect on the ignition and lighting systems would be if there was an additional ground wire (from the ground distribution system) that also connected to that engine point - I do not believe that to be the case, but if there were, it would explain it.

DEcosse · Jul 16, 2015

Bedifferent said:
.... Perhaps it would have been less offensive to you ...

Definitely not offended and I would hope my response taken equally so.

What I was dismissing is the section in the manual, that is frankly, wrong. My 'argument' (harsh word, it's not hostile discussion, at least not intended to be) is just to defend the original design position.
You raised the subject of 'right vs wrong', suggesting the manual alludes to frame grounding, just defending my corner
But more importantly, illustrating the current path and that adding another ground is not the solution to this particular problem.
I was/am attempting to show if/how grounding could play a part in this issue and my deduction is - it doesn't.

dobro · Jul 16, 2015

DEcosse said:
Correct

Yes - however messing with your key would be unlikely to resolve that; it does remain a possible point of contention, but is quite separate from the connection at the engine.

I believe they genuinely found that loose ground and had a Eureka! moment.
As I said, it is positive that they found this, it would have caused other issues.
However this would not cause the symptoms you described. It would not interrupt those circuits previously mentioned (most recognizable being the lights)
Again, please try for yourself - disconnect it COMPLETELY and see what happens.
The only way that could have any effect on the ignition and lighting systems would be if there was an additional ground wire (from the ground distribution system) that also connected to that engine point - I do not believe that to be the case, but if there were, it would explain it.

Thanks again, Decosse. I appreciate your patience. I'll try to make this my last dumb question on this subject. For the lights, ignition, etc. that are attached to that small branch of the neg battery cable, how do they receive grounding if the main branch of that neg battery cable has become unattached from the engine block?

Bedifferent · Jul 16, 2015

DEcosse said:
Definitely not offended and I would hope my response taken equally so.

What I was dismissing is the section in the manual, that is frankly, wrong. My 'argument' (harsh word, it's not hostile discussion, at least not intended to be) is just to defend the original design position.
You raised the subject of 'right vs wrong', suggesting the manual alludes to frame grounding, just defending my corner
But more importantly, illustrating the current path and that adding another ground is not the solution to this particular problem.
I was/am attempting to show if/how grounding could play a part in this issue and my deduction is - it doesn't.

I agree.....I did just check with the parts diagram at Hermy's Triumph Parts and the negative cable does,in fact, show a pigtail on the cable. I do not see the same pigtail being shown on the positive wire.

DEcosse · Jul 16, 2015

I don't see the positive one in the diagram in the fiche (and honestly, they don't always reflect the real hardware anyway - however in this case for the negative the part number is the same, so that is what makes it so, rather than the cartoon diagram)
Re the positive - just going by schematic, shows item #68 ("Battery Connection Positive") on there, not on the Roadster or Classic

DEcosse · Jul 16, 2015

dobro said:
For the lights, ignition, etc. that are attached to that small branch of the neg battery cable, how do they receive grounding if the main branch of that neg battery cable has become unattached from the engine block

It does not matter if the engine end is disconnected - current flows through that connector through the short length of smaller diameter to the battery negative terminal

Does this help (or complicate things? )

Arrows show direction of current flow (conventional - electrons really flow from negative to plus but let's not even go there )

So I simplified the positive side greatly - obviously there are more components there not just the switch - but essentially that shows the current flow and hopefully why it is not affected by the engine ground connection (even if completely removed)

TURBO200R4 · Jul 16, 2015

a couple of tips.
don't go to a mechanic and try to tell him what some one else thinks. he might explain where the door is and then might not be smart to take it back at later dates.
i would put it thru a safety check horn,turn signals, lights including brake light,ect.
hope the bike is a1 good luck

CanberraR3 · Jul 17, 2015

Have you bothered to check the connector plug under the tank? The one that leads from the ignition switch?

DEcosse · Jul 17, 2015

CanberraR3 said:
Have you bothered to check the connector plug under the tank? The one that leads from the ignition switch?

+1
Made same suggestion in my very first reply in this thread

2011 R3T Completely Dead

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2011 R3T Completely Dead

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