Not Happy! 3rd brake bleed required.

[Claudiu]

Thanks for contributing to the conversation. Your bike sounds normal. As the pads and rotors wear the system consumes some brake fluid. If you are still having to purge regularly it sounds like you aren't getting it all out to me. Good enough for a while until the compression ratio of gas to liquid takes more than the master cylinder can compensate, pump it again. Bleed it again. Harder, longer....

Sounds like you have Speed Nipples installed with the springs to prevent air during bleeding. They still have to be torqued on the metal to metal bevel that seals off. The springs are just used during bleeding. Tighten them back up.

An interesting read on brake lines for us in the US.

Brake & Front End Magazine: Auto Brake Repair Shop, Cars, Trucks

Brake & Front End serves repair shops conducting a high volume of undercar repairs by providing application-specific technical information and solutions to address emerging trends in the undercar repair segment.

www.brakeandfrontend.com

Brake hoses are the most government-regulated components on a vehicle. Anyone making brake assemblies must be registered with the Department of Transportation (DOT). All aftermarket hose, fittings and complete hoses must conform to FMVSS 106 and SAE J1401. These tests are demanding and often exceed what a vehicle will see in the real world.

The DOT standard in a nutshell says brake hoses must be flexible in a wide range of temperatures while having a predictable expansion rate so the pedal feel and ABS response is the same in winter and summer. It also specifies that hoses must be able to bend and twist at certain angles without collapsing, kinking or bursting.

FMVSS 106 and SAE J1401 do not specify construction or materials. These documents outline a test procedure that completed hose must pass.

These tests and standards include:

• Markings: Each hydraulic brake hose, except the original hoses, have at least two clearly identifiable stripes of at least 1/16th of an inch in width, placed on opposite sides of the brake hose parallel to its longitudinal axis. These are called “torque stripes.” One stripe may be interrupted by the information printed on the hose. These are to prevent twisting during assembly and installation.
• Burst Pressures: The hydraulic brake hose assembly must withstand water pressure of 4,000 psi for two minutes without rupture. Hose that is 1/8 inch, 3 mm, or smaller in diameter must be tested at 7,000 psi.
• Whip Testing: Brake hoses are continuously bent on a flexing machine for 35 hours at pressure.
• Tensile Strength: A hydraulic brake hose assembly must withstand a pull of 325 pounds without separation of the hose from its end fittings during a slow pull test, and shall withstand a pull of 370 pounds without separation of the hose from its end fittings during a fast pull test.
• Cold Resistance: A brake hose is chilled to a temperature below minus 49º F for 70 hours shall not show cracks visible without magnification when bent around a cylinder.
• Chemical Resistance: In order to test the hose’s chemical resistance to brake fluid, the hose is subjected to a temperature of 248 degrees Fahrenheit for 70 hours while filled with SAE “Compatibility Fluid.” After this the hose is subjected to a 4,000 psi burst test.
• Ozone Resistance: A brake hose assembly is exposed to ozone for 70 hours at 104° F. Any cracks seen at a specific magnification is ground for failure.
• Fitting Corrosion Resistance: After 24 hours of exposure to salt spray, a hydraulic brake hose end fitting must show no base metal corrosion on the end fitting surface except where crimping or the application of labeling information has caused displacement of the protective coating. What FMVSS 106 does not test for is damage that can take place over a longer period than 35 or 70 hours. It also does not take into account “acts of God” like impacts with road debris and installation errors.

There is not a recommended replacement interval for brake hoses. Brake hose conditions differ from vehicle, drivers and the environment. Inspection is the only way to spot a problem before a brake failure.
Brake hoses should be inspected visually and with your hands. It might be helpful to have someone pump the brake pedal to spot a defective brake hose. Failure typically occurs at the ends of the hose. This is where a hose flexes due to suspension/steering movement. It is also exposed to damage from debris and heat from the brakes.

Thank you for all the details. I am not familiar with DOT but I was involved with TS16949 and VDA 6. I expect process capability to be maintained that means testing a product at least every batch and have a sampling procedure in place for testing inside the batch. This is common practice for car industry but I don’t know if Triump does have such requirements since they don’t seem affiliate to car manufacturers standards and there is not enough information abou what tests they conduct if any on top of vehicle homologation process. I have bled the brakes about twelve times and I experimented with Motul RBF 600 and Motorex racing fluid to validate or invalidate different hypotheses without relevant results. The brakes were even bled by the dealer using their computer and lasted only few weeks before failing. I estimate the volume of air purged so far exceeds the internal volume of rear hose. After a couple of weeks the lever fades and to prime the brake I press the lever few times and a clear noise of fluid move can be heard from under the tank. I found evidence of leaks of some fluid on the engine cover but I don’t have means to test what that is. Maybe just condensation dripping. I am using a Stahlbus banjo with an integrated valve and I have installed a large open bubble foam on the bottom of the reservoir attempting to contain an eventual free surface effect (Rocket is one of the few bikes with integrated reservoir, almost everything else has a jar located to a certain distance from the pump). No impact at all. I am ready to service the pump and hone the cylinder but before that I will dismantle the rear hose and attempt to do a leak test under pressure with soap and compressed air. It’s interesting that only rear circuit is impacted. A significant number of bikes is impacted which excludes a random issue. Triumph had instructed the dealers to just bleed the brakes, then some to replace the ABS modulator, now the last thing is replacing the hose. It seems they guesstimate like me. I am looking forward to any idea which can help identifying the problem or conducting any experiment I didn’t think of already because this is very annoying and the manufacturer seems to be unable to deliver a solution. I forgot to mention that I used large amounts of fluid during bleeding and the level drops within two-three weeks.

 

[Journeyman]

Wow- a lot to digest in these last few hours, but I do believe that we will soon figure this out. Either Triumph knows and won't say, or is also scratching their head. There are a lot of smart people on this site and Triumph would be smart to monitor it. I'm waiting to hear back from Hermy's to see what they say. The parts guy is checking with their service department.

 

[Claudiu]

I think the matter is a little complicated. It may be a combination of design and manufacturing issues. I have no longer access to a metrology lab to check flatness, roughness, perpendicularity, etc and I don't have the manufacturing drawings anyway. What I can do for now is to replace the brake lines one by one, grind the mating parts, anneal all washers before installing and see what happens. If things still happen then I will find a 1/2" master cylinder with external reservoir or I pull a fluid line and install a reservoir beyond the radiator or under headstock. FRACAS for fun on a real estate made $25000 bike. Caliper cups would be the last items to service since I trust Brembo far more than I trust Triumph.

 

[TURBO200R4]

I think the matter is a little complicated. It may be a combination of design and manufacturing issues. I have no longer access to a metrology lab to check flatness, roughness, perpendicularity, etc and I don't have the manufacturing drawings anyway. What I can do for now is to replace the brake lines one by one, grind the mating parts, anneal all washers before installing and see what happens. If things still happen then I will find a 1/2" master cylinder with external reservoir or I pull a fluid line and install a reservoir beyond the radiator or under headstock. FRACAS for fun on a real estate made $25000 bike. Caliper cups would be the last items to service since I trust Brembo far more than I trust Triumph.

seems like that would be a lot of work especially since the cups/seals is what usually goes bad in a few years. i know it is new.
has anyone ever contacted bremo to get there opinion?

 

[TURBO200R4]

jmo
i am going to guess the air is in the rear cylinder so that is where i would start first to fix a problem.

 

[Claudiu]

seems like that would be a lot of work especially since the cups/seals is what usually goes bad in a few years. i know it is new.
has anyone ever contacted bremo to get there opinion?

It seems it is not necessary. The same caliper is used on front brakes of Ducati Supersport 950, Panigale 899 and Hypermotard, etc. Also by Aprilia and CanAm Spider. Brembo part number 20B691**. Some BMW R1200GS. And among many others on Triumph Street Triple R.

 

[TURBO200R4]

my opinion is just an opinion it's what i would do if it was my bike. that does not say that i am correct and i know more than the dealers and the rest of the experts. i am not a brake expert but over my 60 years experience i have solved some screwed up brake problems.

 

[Claudiu]

my opinion is just an opinion it's what i would do if it was my bike. that does not say that i am correct and i know more than the dealers and the rest of the experts. i am not a brake expert but over my 60 years experience i have solved some screwed up brake problems.

I realize written communication appears harsh, I am actually very happy to have this conversation and produce evidence and records which may help others. I used to work in automotive quality and I understand how important is to have good data at hand but here we are a group of enthusiasts without resources trying to figure out how to solve a problem Hinkley should have not created at all We don't have enough time and money to try it alone so maybe we succeed as a group.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

So... I took my Rocket in today and talked with the dealer/tech. As always they are extremely nice and talkative and I have to say I appreciate their polite demeanor. The tech explained to me that when we talked on the phone (I misread his abrasiveness for him multitasking) that after we spoke 20 minutes later another Rocket rider called and booked an appointment for a bleed to the rear brakes. In fact he said there were three Triumphs with the same problem at the dealership. He stated he sent a request for resolvent on all three motorcycles to Triumph N/America. He has yet to hear back from them from 2 days ago. They said they can only request that Triumph pay for the fix as all 3 motorcycles have had the issue with low miles and all within a two year span and less. The price is less than I thought at $110.00 but it's the idea I may have to pay every 9-12 months for a rear brake bleed. I should know the answer from Triumph in the next day or so. He stated he had no idea how they will handle it but they have zero control over decisions. I was surprised as I also want the oil/filter change but I found out they do not turn off the 'Spanner' for an oil change. That is $130.00 but he is having it done for me for $90.00 (still too high) out of sympathy I think. I know this dealership in northern Cali is one of the most expensive in the state other than the bay area. I'll let you know what happens and if Triumph does the right thing and pays but I'm thinking that won't so... One more thing. Guess what the fix is? Yup, just a bleed and off you go.

 

[imcool]

So... I took my Rocket in today and talked with the dealer/tech. As always they are extremely nice and talkative and I have to say I appreciate their polite demeanor. The tech explained to me that when we talked on the phone (I misread his abrasiveness for him multitasking) that after we spoke 20 minutes later another Rocket rider called and booked an appointment for a bleed to the rear brakes. In fact he said there were three Triumphs with the same problem at the dealership. He stated he sent a request for resolvent on all three motorcycles to Triumph N/America. He has yet to hear back from them from 2 days ago. They said they can only request that Triumph pay for the fix as all 3 motorcycles have had the issue with low miles and all within a two year span and less. The price is less than I thought at $110.00 but it's the idea I may have to pay every 9-12 months for a rear brake bleed. I should know the answer from Triumph in the next day or so. He stated he had no idea how they will handle it but they have zero control over decisions. I was surprised as I also want the oil/filter change but I found out they do not turn off the 'Spanner' for an oil change. That is $130.00 but he is having it done for me for $90.00 (still too high) out of sympathy I think. I know this dealership in northern Cali is one of the most expensive in the state other than the bay area. I'll let you know what happens and if Triumph does the right thing and pays but I'm thinking that won't so... One more thing. Guess what the fix is? Yup, just a bleed and off you go.

get tuneecu or dealertool or get both (I have both) and get rid of dealer altogether.
we can do our own brake bleed because we have access to factory service manual provided by triumph.
I think of it this way, either we keep giving money to dealer for stuff which we can do by buying our own tools, so i would rather invest in tools than to give money to dealer.

I dont have that much deep pockets to spend thousands ( eventually) of dollar at dealer for service which I can do by myself so I started investing in tools and stuff after my first service.

coming back to brake issue, i hope it all comes down to brake hoses