Pig9r
Living Legend
I can't find it Jack.
Lower Timing Chain Blew-up!!!!!!!
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Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
It's not there anywhere Pigger.
Basically, what's going to happen is we are going to get the hex nut size, ie: 20mm and use the lowest applicable torque for the class of nut. I can get that too, tomorow in the shop. Of course we don't know what size the nut is so if someone would like to pull the inspection cover and slip a socket over it, have at it.
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Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
Notice the valve face relief in each piston crown......not much clearance exists even when the valves are in time and correctly adjusted. Loose the chain and things get real tight, real fast
HeR3tic
Living Legend
Dammit! I've been saying you're good for something all-along
Great discussion Flip! Beside, it makes me feel better about the RedLine additive.Change all my references to "keyway" to key. YES, I surely believe the key is the answer
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Keys
Thanks alot guys,just wanted to be sure It wasn't my eyes or old brain screwing with me again..Flip,yea we can use the standard size method but I want to call about 3-4 dealers that have done this job and see what I get for an answer.Ha..Her3tic thanks for all the key and keyway info,kinda had that In mind to ck. realy close.The key Is uasually softer than the keyway like flip said, so the key wont damage the keyway..I know of two crankshafts now that have had the keyways damaged to where new cranks are needed. So the keys and keyways must just be so sloppy that they are beating them selves out and causing the gear(sprocket)to split.I've got all winter to do this so I figure the slower I go the better..I'll get some picts tomorrow of the culprit..Thanks again. ---Jack
Thanks alot guys,just wanted to be sure It wasn't my eyes or old brain screwing with me again..Flip,yea we can use the standard size method but I want to call about 3-4 dealers that have done this job and see what I get for an answer.Ha..Her3tic thanks for all the key and keyway info,kinda had that In mind to ck. realy close.The key Is uasually softer than the keyway like flip said, so the key wont damage the keyway..I know of two crankshafts now that have had the keyways damaged to where new cranks are needed. So the keys and keyways must just be so sloppy that they are beating them selves out and causing the gear(sprocket)to split.I've got all winter to do this so I figure the slower I go the better..I'll get some picts tomorrow of the culprit..Thanks again. ---Jack
wilbur-t
Top Fuel
This cat is trying to tell me that 6 of the intake valves had no clearance, yet the engine was still running fine??????? Again I say "HORSE SH*T"
If the valves had no clearance cold, then they would be hanging open when it was hot. I will have a long talk with him when I pick the bike up tomorrow. He hasn't even told me yet how much they are going to rip me for adjusting the valves. On the phone yesterday he said he had not figured the ticket up yet.
Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
Wilbur:
Does the shop know what you do for a living or do they think you work in the computer field and are completely a novice when it comes to mechanical things?
You need to wear your Snap-On jacket over there.
Does the shop know what you do for a living or do they think you work in the computer field and are completely a novice when it comes to mechanical things?
You need to wear your Snap-On jacket over there.
Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
I went out to the shop and got all my books in here now.
Interestingly, Triumph calls out for Mobil Antifreeze with a 50% mix of distilled water....
I believe what I'd do in this case would be use Mobil Delvac Extended Life Antifreeze in a 50-50 mixture with distilled water or Mobil Delvac Pre-Mix Extended Life. Both have the Potassium Permagnate and are Ph corrected. The only trouble with extended life antifreeze is it isn't compatible with normal ethelyne/propylene glycol based antifreezes and will actually gel in the cooling system. Before switching to extended life the system must be flushed and as much of the old stuff removed prior to adding extended life AF.
-- CAT EC-1;
-- Cummins 14603;
-- Detroit Diesel 7SE298;
-- MTU 5048; and,
-- Mercedes DBL 7700.
These are all wet linered engines just like the Rocket with alloys present and all these manufacturers approve of the Mobil coolant.
Now, on to the nuts and keys:
As far as the fixing nut on the crankshaft end is concerned, Machinery's Hanbook states simply that the thread pitch has to be determined as well as the grade of nut. ie: 6, 7 or 8.8 before the torque can be extrapolated to stress the threaded section to the point of yield. It's a complicated formula but I need the thread pitch as well as the hex nut grade. Without disassembly and measuring the pitch of the threads and checking the nut (it should be stamped with the grade), it's basically impossible to determine the yield torque. Of course the mechanical drawings with the required data are proprietary information of Triumph so the only way other than dis-assembly is to rely on what a select gropup of dealers relay to us and take the average of all of them torque spec wise. Of course one will have to determine (from those dealers) if the torque value is dry or wet, meaning whether the threads are lubricated with an anti sieze/galling compound or 'dry' which means that the threads on the crankshaft and nut are cleaned with a non lubricating solvent and then the nut is applied and torqued to yield.
When we were discussing the headshake on the Rocket and I said you need to follow the progressive torque specs in the Triumph shop manual very carefully and then insure the lower clamp nut remains immobile while torquing the upper nut to specification, that specification is the 'plastic state yield' of the threaded portion of the steering stem measured with a dial indicator by first zeroing the indicator on the stem with no preload on the fixing nut and then torquing the nut to obtain the proper 'stretch' in the stem itself according to the table compiled in my book. Again, that's proprietary data but at least that's in the shop manual. The procedure must be followed very carefully as the lower nut can't move at all or the 'yield' factor will change and the pre-load will be incorrect.
Keys and keyseats: Next post
Interestingly, Triumph calls out for Mobil Antifreeze with a 50% mix of distilled water....
I believe what I'd do in this case would be use Mobil Delvac Extended Life Antifreeze in a 50-50 mixture with distilled water or Mobil Delvac Pre-Mix Extended Life. Both have the Potassium Permagnate and are Ph corrected. The only trouble with extended life antifreeze is it isn't compatible with normal ethelyne/propylene glycol based antifreezes and will actually gel in the cooling system. Before switching to extended life the system must be flushed and as much of the old stuff removed prior to adding extended life AF.
-- CAT EC-1;
-- Cummins 14603;
-- Detroit Diesel 7SE298;
-- MTU 5048; and,
-- Mercedes DBL 7700.
These are all wet linered engines just like the Rocket with alloys present and all these manufacturers approve of the Mobil coolant.
Now, on to the nuts and keys:
As far as the fixing nut on the crankshaft end is concerned, Machinery's Hanbook states simply that the thread pitch has to be determined as well as the grade of nut. ie: 6, 7 or 8.8 before the torque can be extrapolated to stress the threaded section to the point of yield. It's a complicated formula but I need the thread pitch as well as the hex nut grade. Without disassembly and measuring the pitch of the threads and checking the nut (it should be stamped with the grade), it's basically impossible to determine the yield torque. Of course the mechanical drawings with the required data are proprietary information of Triumph so the only way other than dis-assembly is to rely on what a select gropup of dealers relay to us and take the average of all of them torque spec wise. Of course one will have to determine (from those dealers) if the torque value is dry or wet, meaning whether the threads are lubricated with an anti sieze/galling compound or 'dry' which means that the threads on the crankshaft and nut are cleaned with a non lubricating solvent and then the nut is applied and torqued to yield.
When we were discussing the headshake on the Rocket and I said you need to follow the progressive torque specs in the Triumph shop manual very carefully and then insure the lower clamp nut remains immobile while torquing the upper nut to specification, that specification is the 'plastic state yield' of the threaded portion of the steering stem measured with a dial indicator by first zeroing the indicator on the stem with no preload on the fixing nut and then torquing the nut to obtain the proper 'stretch' in the stem itself according to the table compiled in my book. Again, that's proprietary data but at least that's in the shop manual. The procedure must be followed very carefully as the lower nut can't move at all or the 'yield' factor will change and the pre-load will be incorrect.
Keys and keyseats: Next post
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Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
Keys, keyways and keyseats...
I'll let you draw from this statement directly from Machinery's Handbook....
British Standard Metric Keys and Keyways.-The British Standard, BS4235art1:1972 (1986), covers square and rectangular parallel keys and keyways and square and rectangular keys and jeyways. Plain and gib-head taper keys are specified. There are three classes of fit for the square and rectangular keys and keyways, designated by free, normal and close . A free fit is applied when the application requires the hub of an assembly to slide over the key; a normal fit is employed when the key is to be inserted in the keyway with the minimum amount of fitting as may be required in mass- production assembly work; and a close fit is applied where accurate fitting of the key is required under maximum material conditions, which may involve selection of components.
**Pay careful attention to free, normal and close.
Continuing.....
The Standard does not provide for mis-alignment or offset greater than than can be accomodated within the dimensional tolerances. If an assembly is to be heavily stressed, a check should be made to insure that the cumulative effect of mis-alignment or offset or both does not present unsatisfactory bearing on the key.
Unless otherwise specified, keys in compliance with this standard are manufactured from steel made to BS970 having a tensile strength of not less than 550MN/m(2) in the finished condition. BS970, Part 1, lists the following steels and section sized respectively that meet this tensile strength requirement: 070M20, 25x14 mm; 070M26 36x20 mm; 080M30 90x45 mm and 080M40 100x50mm.
**Normally, alloy steels are classified in everyday jargon by the M number (in metric nomenclature) so 20,26,30 and 40 are acceptable alloys for keys. I'm thinking as there is no disassembly instructions in the shop manual for removal of the lower timing sprocket that Triumph is employing the normal fit. Understand too, that the clamping or applied torque figure of the nut itself resists any axial movement of the sprocket which, will in turn act on the key and eventually cause it to fail and allow the sprocket to move axially on the crankshaft end which causes the valve timing to become erattic and does bad things as we all know.
I'll let you draw from this statement directly from Machinery's Handbook....
British Standard Metric Keys and Keyways.-The British Standard, BS4235
art1:1972 (1986), covers square and rectangular parallel keys and keyways and square and rectangular keys and jeyways. Plain and gib-head taper keys are specified. There are three classes of fit for the square and rectangular keys and keyways, designated by free, normal and close . A free fit is applied when the application requires the hub of an assembly to slide over the key; a normal fit is employed when the key is to be inserted in the keyway with the minimum amount of fitting as may be required in mass- production assembly work; and a close fit is applied where accurate fitting of the key is required under maximum material conditions, which may involve selection of components.**Pay careful attention to free, normal and close.
Continuing.....
The Standard does not provide for mis-alignment or offset greater than than can be accomodated within the dimensional tolerances. If an assembly is to be heavily stressed, a check should be made to insure that the cumulative effect of mis-alignment or offset or both does not present unsatisfactory bearing on the key.
Unless otherwise specified, keys in compliance with this standard are manufactured from steel made to BS970 having a tensile strength of not less than 550MN/m(2) in the finished condition. BS970, Part 1, lists the following steels and section sized respectively that meet this tensile strength requirement: 070M20, 25x14 mm; 070M26 36x20 mm; 080M30 90x45 mm and 080M40 100x50mm.
**Normally, alloy steels are classified in everyday jargon by the M number (in metric nomenclature) so 20,26,30 and 40 are acceptable alloys for keys. I'm thinking as there is no disassembly instructions in the shop manual for removal of the lower timing sprocket that Triumph is employing the normal fit. Understand too, that the clamping or applied torque figure of the nut itself resists any axial movement of the sprocket which, will in turn act on the key and eventually cause it to fail and allow the sprocket to move axially on the crankshaft end which causes the valve timing to become erattic and does bad things as we all know.
Flip
So do you think we should go for a close fit??Wonder If triumph has changed the keys?? From the picts. I cant tell If the nut Is a nut or just a sleeve and the bolt In the center Is whats really holding It on..Just gona have to take It apart to see..Do the numbers on the bolt mean anything to you??? Mabey just pluging the threads from a handeling process at assembly..Wouldnt It be nice If we could call the enginers that designed the dam thing and ask..I'am not a forensic detective..Are you..Ha
So do you think we should go for a close fit??Wonder If triumph has changed the keys?? From the picts. I cant tell If the nut Is a nut or just a sleeve and the bolt In the center Is whats really holding It on..Just gona have to take It apart to see..Do the numbers on the bolt mean anything to you??? Mabey just pluging the threads from a handeling process at assembly..Wouldnt It be nice If we could call the enginers that designed the dam thing and ask..I'am not a forensic detective..Are you..Ha
