Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
In some of the earlier versions of the software, I4 was neutral. In later versions, there is not an I4.
How to Copy/Paste Ignition Tables ?
- Thread starter Idaho Red Rocket 3
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HansO
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As Wayne uses the TuneECU software more for ignition tunning than most people in the real world, I would tend to follow his advice.
the following is the response I received from Tom
Hi Hanso,
according to Alain (the programmer), it should be as follows:
Rocket III & Classic
Old-> New
I1 -> I(N)
I2 -> I1
I3 -> I2
I4 -> I3
Rocket III Roadster & Touring
Old > New
I1 -> I1
I2 -> I2
I3 -> I3
I4 -> I(N)
I1 = Ignition timing in gears 1-3.
I2 = Ignition in 4th gear.
I3 = ignition in 5th gear.
I(N) = ignition in neutral.
However I can not say for sure, that his information is correct.
This information should be checked on a test stand.
BR, Tom
the following is the response I received from Tom
Hi Hanso,
according to Alain (the programmer), it should be as follows:
Rocket III & Classic
Old-> New
I1 -> I(N)
I2 -> I1
I3 -> I2
I4 -> I3
Rocket III Roadster & Touring
Old > New
I1 -> I1
I2 -> I2
I3 -> I3
I4 -> I(N)
I1 = Ignition timing in gears 1-3.
I2 = Ignition in 4th gear.
I3 = ignition in 5th gear.
I(N) = ignition in neutral.
However I can not say for sure, that his information is correct.
This information should be checked on a test stand.
BR, Tom
Idaho Red Rocket 3
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I1 = Ignition timing in gears 1-3.
I2 = Ignition in 4th gear.
I3 = ignition in 5th gear.
I(N) = ignition in neutral.
Ok Team, ( and what a team we have.) I will take a look at it based on this table layout and see what I can find or do with it. I really want to get the 1-3 gears timing reduction removed.
Bill.
I2 = Ignition in 4th gear.
I3 = ignition in 5th gear.
I(N) = ignition in neutral.
Ok Team, ( and what a team we have.) I will take a look at it based on this table layout and see what I can find or do with it. I really want to get the 1-3 gears timing reduction removed.
Bill.
Idaho Red Rocket 3
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I studied the ignition tables in 4 codes I have. All of them ran the same ignition timing numbers in I1, I2 and I3. Only I(N) was different.
Now I am wondering were to get a table that actually has different numbers for 4th and 5th gears I can copy for 1st - 3rd.
Now I am wondering were to get a table that actually has different numbers for 4th and 5th gears I can copy for 1st - 3rd.
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
Methinks you do not understand ignition timing, especially as related to time under load (per gear). Just plugging in numbers is like throwing darts in the dark.
Idaho Red Rocket 3
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Hi TP,
Well I think I do understand. Maybe I don't. As I read all of the tables, I do not see different numbers in each cell when comparing the I1, I2 and I3 Tables. What should I see ? Can you explain in detail what we should be seeing in the cells of the tables ?
Well I think I do understand. Maybe I don't. As I read all of the tables, I do not see different numbers in each cell when comparing the I1, I2 and I3 Tables. What should I see ? Can you explain in detail what we should be seeing in the cells of the tables ?
Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
First, WHY do you think that you need more ignition advance in lower gears?
barbagris
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Power-Tripp
Turbocharged
Let's go back and look at what we are trying to accomplish with ignition advance, and what effects what is best.
Ignition timing is all about firing the plug early enough to get peak cylinder pressures to occur when the piston/rod and crankshaft are rotated far enough beyond TDC to effectively transmit pressure to the crank to cause rotation. Generally with gasoline fuels and most engine designs this is 14°-16° ATDC.
If we fire the plug too late, combustion pressure is wasted, and less complete combustion occurs - more raw fuel goes out of the exhaust valve. However, as we increase ignition advance, we are also robbing torque from the crank as more work is required to push each piston to TDC. This also increases time and heat load in the chamber.
Now, as we fill the cylinder less, we produce less pressure, which means combustion occurs less quickly. As a result, we increase advance to get peak pressure back to 14-16 ATDC.
As ambient air temps rise, Humidity increases, or we pick up more heat in the mixture, we fill the cylinder less, and again, we need more timing advance.
Now, load and time also play a huge part as well. If we increase the weight of the vehicle (like a truck towing a trailer), we spend more time at each load point, and build more heat in the chamber. This increases combustion speed, and we need to reduce ignition advance accordingly.
Gearing is just like weight, in that it alters time under load. First gear adds load to the engine, but reduces time at each specific load point. This requires more ignition advance. And each successive gear change to a higher gear increases time under load. This requires less and less ignition advance. Even tire design and compound can change load and the time under it - requiring different timing and fuel calibrations.
HOW MUCH this changes will depend on MANY, MANY factors. There are no short cuts to testing.
You may have noticed that most engines have a window or plateau where they make best torque where small changes to timing and fueling make no difference to output. Well, which side of the window you are on can make a big difference to how well an engine accelerates, responds, and recovers from a shift. Finding the sweet spot takes time and experience. But watching which way torque is trending over time (8-12 seconds under load) can help. This is where an EGA can really pay off. Reading CO, CO2, and O2 can indicate which way you want to go, but you need to also do a good bit of testing and logging off the dyno and on the road or track to get a solid grasp on this.
You will soon see that dynos don't lie, but that we can easily test incorrectly - wrong load and time. A pretty dyno graph does not mean that we get best acceleration despite calibrating to best torque on the dyno. Once you get past this, you can understand that a dyno is a tool, not the end-all, be-all that some think. We need to make sure that we are testing correctly.
Get a grasp on the fact that engines are DYNAMIC and used under ever-changing conditions. You need to calibrate for the actual conditions the vehicle will see.
Ignition timing is about combustion speed - heat, load, and time. Change anything, and these three factors change as well. Many OEMs retard timing at low throttle positions (loads) in order to get incomplete combustion that will leave fuel burning in the exhaust. This helps to keep exhaust catalysts hot and more efficient. We can go in an re-calibrate to get significantly more low load torque, but this can mean that we get excessive engine response while cruising - the bike surges ahead or compression brakes with very little throttle change. It is a balancing act of compromises.
Just because you can change ignition timing, does not mean you should. Especially so if you have no way to determine what the engine wants.
I hope this helps,
-Wayne
Ignition timing is all about firing the plug early enough to get peak cylinder pressures to occur when the piston/rod and crankshaft are rotated far enough beyond TDC to effectively transmit pressure to the crank to cause rotation. Generally with gasoline fuels and most engine designs this is 14°-16° ATDC.
If we fire the plug too late, combustion pressure is wasted, and less complete combustion occurs - more raw fuel goes out of the exhaust valve. However, as we increase ignition advance, we are also robbing torque from the crank as more work is required to push each piston to TDC. This also increases time and heat load in the chamber.
Now, as we fill the cylinder less, we produce less pressure, which means combustion occurs less quickly. As a result, we increase advance to get peak pressure back to 14-16 ATDC.
As ambient air temps rise, Humidity increases, or we pick up more heat in the mixture, we fill the cylinder less, and again, we need more timing advance.
Now, load and time also play a huge part as well. If we increase the weight of the vehicle (like a truck towing a trailer), we spend more time at each load point, and build more heat in the chamber. This increases combustion speed, and we need to reduce ignition advance accordingly.
Gearing is just like weight, in that it alters time under load. First gear adds load to the engine, but reduces time at each specific load point. This requires more ignition advance. And each successive gear change to a higher gear increases time under load. This requires less and less ignition advance. Even tire design and compound can change load and the time under it - requiring different timing and fuel calibrations.
HOW MUCH this changes will depend on MANY, MANY factors. There are no short cuts to testing.
You may have noticed that most engines have a window or plateau where they make best torque where small changes to timing and fueling make no difference to output. Well, which side of the window you are on can make a big difference to how well an engine accelerates, responds, and recovers from a shift. Finding the sweet spot takes time and experience. But watching which way torque is trending over time (8-12 seconds under load) can help. This is where an EGA can really pay off. Reading CO, CO2, and O2 can indicate which way you want to go, but you need to also do a good bit of testing and logging off the dyno and on the road or track to get a solid grasp on this.
You will soon see that dynos don't lie, but that we can easily test incorrectly - wrong load and time. A pretty dyno graph does not mean that we get best acceleration despite calibrating to best torque on the dyno. Once you get past this, you can understand that a dyno is a tool, not the end-all, be-all that some think. We need to make sure that we are testing correctly.
Get a grasp on the fact that engines are DYNAMIC and used under ever-changing conditions. You need to calibrate for the actual conditions the vehicle will see.
Ignition timing is about combustion speed - heat, load, and time. Change anything, and these three factors change as well. Many OEMs retard timing at low throttle positions (loads) in order to get incomplete combustion that will leave fuel burning in the exhaust. This helps to keep exhaust catalysts hot and more efficient. We can go in an re-calibrate to get significantly more low load torque, but this can mean that we get excessive engine response while cruising - the bike surges ahead or compression brakes with very little throttle change. It is a balancing act of compromises.
Just because you can change ignition timing, does not mean you should. Especially so if you have no way to determine what the engine wants.
I hope this helps,
-Wayne
