Darkside Review ???

[tdragger]

hanso, I'll give your writer the benefit of the doubt and will look forward to his review. I do ask, however, that he be supplied with my comments above.

 

[CanberraR3]

Wouldn't be surprised if he was following this thread anyway. If not, he should be.

 

[The Bear]

I am following the thread now, at hanso's suggestion, and I'd like to thank you all for your input.
I can well understand the concern some of you have about us getting used to the handling and other behaviour of a bike with a ct; I share that concern, and I am still working on ways to overcome the problem.
Whatever we do, we will do in consultation with hanso and a couple of other darksiders here in Oz; in the meantime, if any of you have any other specific comments we shold take into account, please post them here and I will take note of them.
Frankly, I think it's people who don't like darksiding who should be complaining about not being consulted!
As for advertising: a well-known US motorcycle magazine editor (whose name I have forgotten, of course) once said "I like my advertisers, but I love my readers".
Hallelujah.

 

[TriumPhil]

Good to have ya' Bear.

I'll post some of my concerns in detail later today.

 

[tdragger]

Good to have ya' Bear.

I'll post some of my concerns in detail later today.

I'm sure you will, Phil. I'm sure you will. You da expert on darkside'n.

 

[goodfellow]

expert....

why,yes, indeed...


we need some 'expert' advice on how dangerous them there under inflated darkside tires be about... uhhhhh, yes we does.



greg.

 

[TriumPhil]

I don't get the snide comment, tdragger, as I don't really care what you or anyone else chooses to ride on. Contrarily, I do give a big **** about my own well being when on two wheels and I strongly advocate that any who are contemplating a different tire on the rear should have as much info available to them as possible, so that they can make a well informed decision. My main concerns:

#1. When riding hard in the twisties, I found myself riding a good 2" up onto the car tire's unreinforced sidewall. Given the forces on the tire under such conditions and also taking into account irregularities which may be in the roadway and/or dangerous debris one may encounter at any time, how can riding a car tire in or under such circumstances be deemed safe or prudent? I was Darksiding on a Toyo Proxes T1R in as close to stock geometry as possible (255/55 16).

#2. On a few occasions, I needed to make emergency steering maneuvers or take evasive steering action in order to avoid mishaps. These occurred at highway speeds and above. What I found was a very sluggish response to my steering input, certainly a delayed response vs that in similar circumstances with a motorcycle tire on the rear. Since the car tire virtually always requires heavier input from the rider to make any sort of maneuver and because the response time, in my experience, is always slower than with the more "flickable" motorcycle tire, how can we deem those characteristics of the car tire "safe" in general?

#3. Some claim that the heavier car tire, which also has much more rolling resistance, tends to "eat" horsepower and torque. Although my butt dyno seems to confirm this, we need to see real dyno runs on the same bike under the same conditions, running both types of tires. Although I suspect that there is a hp and torque loss with the CT, I don't think that it will be more than about 5-7%.

Although the wider tread and contact patch of the CT afford better grip under the majority of conditions, most especially in the rain; for riders like myself, who try to avoid riding in the rain whenever possible, that is a relative non-issue.

The stories and conversations about this bike being prone to getting sideways with hard rear braking or its breaking traction under hard acceleration are not tire issues per se, IMO, but rider issues. You have to know the performance parameters of whatever machine you ride. I get the distinct impressinon that many either never learn where those parameters are with the R3, or they simply choose to ignore them. Those parameters are noticably different between the CT and the MT on the rear. it would be interesting to see those differences quantified.

I would not have a hard time going back to the car tire if it could be demonstrably proven to be safe under conditions #1 and #2 above. Otherwise, I will mind my braking and acceleration habits and put up with a costlier tire with a shorter service life. To me, that simply seems safer.

 

[nolton]

How bad did the ct look after you decided not to ride on it ? Was there any signs of wear or damage?

 

[HansO]

I don't get the snide comment, tdragger, as I don't really care what you or anyone else chooses to ride on. Contrarily, I do give a big **** about my own well being when on two wheels and I strongly advocate that any who are contemplating a different tire on the rear should have as much info available to them as possible, so that they can make a well informed decision. My main concerns:

#1. When riding hard in the twisties, I found myself riding a good 2" up onto the car tire's unreinforced sidewall. Given the forces on the tire under such conditions and also taking into account irregularities which may be in the roadway and/or dangerous debris one may encounter at any time, how can riding a car tire in or under such circumstances be deemed safe or prudent? I was Darksiding on a Toyo Proxes T1R in as close to stock geometry as possible (255/55 16).

#2. On a few occasions, I needed to make emergency steering maneuvers or take evasive steering action in order to avoid mishaps. These occurred at highway speeds and above. What I found was a very sluggish response to my steering input, certainly a delayed response vs that in similar circumstances with a motorcycle tire on the rear. Since the car tire virtually always requires heavier input from the rider to make any sort of maneuver and because the response time, in my experience, is always slower than with the more "flickable" motorcycle tire, how can we deem those characteristics of the car tire "safe" in general?

#3. Some claim that the heavier car tire, which also has much more rolling resistance, tends to "eat" horsepower and torque. Although my butt dyno seems to confirm this, we need to see real dyno runs on the same bike under the same conditions, running both types of tires. Although I suspect that there is a hp and torque loss with the CT, I don't think that it will be more than about 5-7%.

Although the wider tread and contact patch of the CT afford better grip under the majority of conditions, most especially in the rain; for riders like myself, who try to avoid riding in the rain whenever possible, that is a relative non-issue.

The stories and conversations about this bike being prone to getting sideways with hard rear braking or its breaking traction under hard acceleration are not tire issues per se, IMO, but rider issues. You have to know the performance parameters of whatever machine you ride. I get the distinct impressinon that many either never learn where those parameters are with the R3, or they simply choose to ignore them. Those parameters are noticably different between the CT and the MT on the rear. it would be interesting to see those differences quantified.

I would not have a hard time going back to the car tire if it could be demonstrably proven to be safe under conditions #1 and #2 above. Otherwise, I will mind my braking and acceleration habits and put up with a costlier tire with a shorter service life. To me, that simply seems safer.

Phil as I have stated elsewhere the isues #1 and #3 are solved once you find the right tire pressure I have not run on the side wall since I increased my tire pressure by just 2psi and a bit more air in the front (40psi) tire presure will help with steering responce I actually find it easier to flick from side to sidethan the Metzler and I am about to try a different front tire a Shinko (used to be called and are still made by Yohoma) has just released in the correct size, not haveing a go at you but are you slight of build/ short .
#3 if there is a hp loss it is so slight and that could have been due to fact that 245/55/16 toyo which I also run actually gears up the rear and corrects the speedo by 4 1/2 km/h my speedo according to my GPS was 7km/h out(show faster than I was traveling) now it is only 2 1/2 km/h out so your butt dyno wasn't lieing but telling you that you lost a smiggin of power due to taller gearing.
I do ride in the wet and the grip is so much better and I still at times get wheel spin in the dry if I start to get into it and get on the power a bit early coming out of a Hairpin but its a controllable Torque slide and never feels like it is going further than I want it, takes me back to my Dirtbike days yehaaa

 

[HansO]

How bad did the ct look after you decided not to ride on it ? Was there any signs of wear or damage?

Phill posted a picture elsewhere some time ago and on the section that he is talking about there is still a bit of extra meat and it only happened cause he was running his tyre too soft, I had it happen too and solved it at next garage 2 extra psi when it happens you don't lose any stability in fact you dont even notice it that how good the grip is, it was only because I always check the my tires for forien object if I happen to stop some where as I would rather pull something out of my tire while stopped and limp home rather than have it come out while cranked over in a corner, haveing had a front rapid deflation many years ago my arse still puckers up at how I saved it and did not go face first