4th gear issues R3R 2011

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

More input shaft

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

And the other side of the cogs on the input shaft

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Just some thoughts Martin.
Looks like front fork "A" (1st/4th) might be bent, and the wear is definitely not good. It for sure has to be responsible for your 4th gear shuddering, and at least some of the swarf found in the sump strainers.
You could measure the clearance between fork and the dogring groove with a feeler gauge each side, but ultimately I would replace the fork.

There is some wear on the detent wheel dogs, and the detent claw that turns it might be spread slightly - perhaps someone was kicking it through the gears a bit too heavily and caused this plus the (possibly) bent fork, causing the shuddering and difficulty shifting.

But the output shaft gears do seem a bit too wobbly, I wonder what the clearances are like in the components. 5th seems to move very freely, maybe too free, might be worth replacing the opposing bevelled washers between it and 1st while you're in there - this will probably improve your issue getting it into 5th at least.

Do you think all the swarf in the strainers came from that front fork?
Would be checking rest of engine while I have it apart. Plus opening the oil filter.

Yes the forks must be lined up where they normally operate, or shifting doesn't work right as you've found. Also a transmission will shift better when turning as I'm sure you've found.

Out of interest, I wonder are your circlips the right way round (they have a somewhat rounded edge on one side, and a sharp 90° edge on the other - the sharp edge goes outwards)

There is also the option of sending the trans to Bill Robinson in New York to give it the works wrt deeper & stronger circlips, and undercutting dogs. Maybe even the billet 4th output cog if you felt like it.

Great input thank you. I've been trying to note the orientation of the circlips when removing them and I think they were all the 'right' way round. I had to look very closely and yes low and behold they do indeed have one rounded side and a sharp 90' edge side. Would you use new circlips each time?

I'm thinking of sending it to Robinson for the works, it's just the agg of sending internationally with the customs malarkey. From Ireland I think it's a bit easier but from UK customs declarations etc. Also I wonder how much I'd need to insure it for. What if it went missing. Guess I'd insure it for say 3k as seen complete engines for that so could remove from another engine.

If I don't send to Robinson, then for sure new I'll get new 4th fork, detent wheel, circlips, maybe the needle bearings for inside some of the gears. Dunno :/

 

[Gregger]

Excellent pictures and videos!!

I wonder if Robinson can salvage some of those dogs that are rounded off by undercutting them? If so, the repair might offset the cost to replace. The dogs on several of those gears are really beat up. As already been stated, probably where all the swarf in the screens is from. The bevel washers should be replaced also. Regarding the circlips, given the propensity for these to pop out of their grooves, I'd replace them all. Probably can match them up at any good automotive or industrial shop. If you go with Robinson, they can cut deeper grooves and match them with better circlips. Regarding the international issue, is there any place close to your home that does gear work? Saw some places on Google that look interesting but without references???

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

Excellent pictures and videos!!

I wonder if Robinson can salvage some of those dogs that are rounded off by undercutting them? If so, the repair might offset the cost to replace. The dogs on several of those gears are really beat up. As already been stated, probably where all the swarf in the screens is from. The bevel washers should be replaced also. Regarding the circlips, given the propensity for these to pop out of their grooves, I'd replace them all. Probably can match them up at any good automotive or industrial shop. If you go with Robinson, they can cut deeper grooves and match them with better circlips. Regarding the international issue, is there any place close to your home that does gear work? Saw some places on Google that look interesting but without references???

I'm going to contact Robinson next week see if I can get some idea of cost. I'm also pricing up part from Triumph distributor in the UK to look to do it myself with new parts. Am going to put together a parts list which will include new Belleville washers and circlips. No point scrimping a couple of quiz for those.

 

[kipper]

I was looking at APE transmissions website where they state that rounded dogs cannot be repaired by undercutting, you could be looking at replacing the worn parts Martin.

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

I was looking at APE transmissions website where they state that rounded dogs cannot be repaired by undercutting, you could be looking at replacing the worn parts Martin.

Ah right good info. Could well be a fair few parts ordered I agree. One of the dog rings is £32.00 so not crazy money for all parts. The big gear cogs seem to be the most expensive parts.

Will try to find a local-ish gearbox specialist that I can take the two shafts and bits to so they can run their eye over the cogs and dog rings as some of the photos make bits look worse, then some don't show well what looks rounding off. Maybe an engineer could advise for the cost of a drink

 

[Jag]

Ah right good info. Could well be a fair few parts ordered I agree. One of the dog rings is £32.00 so not crazy money for all parts. The big gear cogs seem to be the most expensive parts.

Will try to find a local-ish gearbox specialist that I can take the two shafts and bits to so they can run their eye over the cogs and dog rings as some of the photos make bits look worse, then some don't show well what looks rounding off. Maybe an engineer could advise for the cost of a drink

If I was in your boat and with all the hard work you have done so far, I would send the transmission to Robinson’s! The extra expense would be offset by the piece of mind you would get by doing so! But that’s just me! Good luck skinner!

 

[RocketmanBristol]

If I was in your boat and with all the hard work you have done so far, I would send the transmission to Robinson’s! The extra expense would be offset by the piece of mind you would get by doing so! But that’s just me! Good luck skinner!

It’s a huge dilemma sending parts off your bike across the Atlantic, I sent an oil pump from an Indian PP100 to the state’s to be “ upgraded “, it came back performing worse than the original and just to rub salt in , customs charged me import duty on my original parts even though it was clearly marked on the packaging what the contents were!
Absolutely no reflection on Robinson’s as they clearly do great work, is there really nobody doing this kind of undercutting work here in the UK? If so it would be a lot easier to purchase the upgraded 4 th gear and associated clips and have it reworked here.

 

[Martin-Brighton-uk]

It’s a huge dilemma sending parts off your bike across the Atlantic, I sent an oil pump from an Indian PP100 to the state’s to be “ upgraded “, it came back performing worse than the original and just to rub salt in , customs charged me import duty on my original parts even though it was clearly marked on the packaging what the contents were!
Absolutely no reflection on Robinson’s as they clearly do great work, is there really nobody doing this kind of undercutting work here in the UK? If so it would be a lot easier to purchase the upgraded 4 th gear and associated clips and have it reworked here.

It's the customs duty as you say and what if it went missing in transit that make me somewhat hesitant to be honest. If Robinson were this side of the pond I would be more comfortable with it. Last night I was pondering if dogs are rounded and dog rings or gears w/ dogs need replacing, well I could order those from Triumph and slide them on the shaft myself. It's not like it was popping out of gear before.

(This is nothing to down play Robinson, it's because I am a bit of a tight arse unless I'm really decided on where I will spend money, as money is hard earned. Then once I make up my mind it's like money no problem. Like I'll save a pound on a circlip but spend a grand on some other gizmo). Also the bike is worth what 5-6k?

There is another underlying issue that I need to get to the bottom of unrelated to engine, handling seems affected since I got knocked off and had a 15 mph lowside. Engine bars took most of the impact but something might be out of true. I'll put up another thread about this item as it's a whole other thing.

So do I go down the road of putting more money into the bike?

But as I'm typing this now it's helping me clarify a plan. I do love that Rocket.

Shafts do need looking at by a gearbox engineer in person, it's the first time I'm seeing dogs outside of a photo, so I don't know what is bad and what isn't really. Robinson by the sounds of it, with other members reports, have the experience with Rocket transmission. They have designed a modification to the shafts by cutting the circlip groove deeper and using a deeper circlip. Also the backcutting which suits another idea I have for TTS supercharger addition.

See my thinking switches from asking should I not replace a circlip to save £2 to spending proper moolah and back and forth.

So I'm going to spend some money and this is the order.

1. Put swingarm/bevel box/rear wheel back on and get frame/headstock/forks checked
2. 'Send input and output shafts to Robinson'.
3. Order new fork, detent wheel, maybe other bits
4. Supercharge with TTS kit now it's got transmission to handle it
5. Make a mental note to change what seems to be a habit I have of doing clutchless upshifts when pootling around on the Rocket as that might of caused it. Years of riding silky smooth VFRs and Blackbirds made me develop that habit.

Item 4 may or may not happen. Gotta make my mind up about that