R3T derestricting

timing recurve??

Power-Tripp;204932 Being able to adjust ignition timing in different gears allows us to take advantage of time under load. Less time allows more ignition advance for best response. An engine can easily responde TOO quickly in low gears said:

not[/I] say that any of Triumphs maps are calibrated for best torque.

The touring map is optimized for emissions, the California map version is even more so. If you open a stock map, you will notice that the secondary throttles actually close considerably in higher gears, and at higher rpm. This restricts output considerably.

The map that I have shared is optimized for best output at all loads above cruise. At cruise, the map is optimized for good fuel consumption. This way you can have your cake, and eat Harleys too.

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I really want to tweek the timing on my touring. I now have a good fuel map (using PCV without AT). I know it has a lot more potential if timing were optimized. What are you using for a timing map? I have access to a dyno, so I plan to do any of this in a controlled environment and (hopefully) prevent damage to the engine. A few weeks ago I saw radical (race) bike with what the owner said was a knock sensor epoxied to the outside of the cyl head. He also was using a custom ECU,,,,just thought it was kind of neat. If we did have a way to add a knock sensor to the stock inputs, we could go much more radical with the timing curve.

long ride

Well, I've planned my first trip after the Wayne/ReMap of about 1,000 miles this weekend. I'll provide a report with fuel consumption when I get back.

Wayne, Thanks again...

Nox,
Yes, I have mapped all R3 models in various states of tune. Various exhausts and intake systems, all the way to built engines with custom intake and exhaust systems. What do you need?

dbutton12 said:

I really want to tweek the timing on my touring. I now have a good fuel map (using PCV without AT). I know it has a lot more potential if timing were optimized. What are you using for a timing map? I have access to a dyno, so I plan to do any of this in a controlled environment and (hopefully) prevent damage to the engine. A few weeks ago I saw radical (race) bike with what the owner said was a knock sensor epoxied to the outside of the cyl head. He also was using a custom ECU,,,,just thought it was kind of neat. If we did have a way to add a knock sensor to the stock inputs, we could go much more radical with the timing curve.

Click to expand...

If you make the R3 engine knock, you are REALLY going in the wrong direction. On supercharged engines, or those with much higher compression ratios I have had John at J&L Electronics build active knock control units specifically for 2, 3, and 4-cylinder engines that detect and pull individual cylinder timing based on a specifically tuned knock sensor and manifold air pressure. Not all cylinders want the same ignition advance.

Most do not have a good grasp on what ignition timing is about, and as a result, think more is better when it is not. They do not fully grasp the DYNAMICS of engine operation. Modern internal combustion engines tend to want peak cylinder pressure to occur 14-18 degrees ATDC, when the piston/rod/crank are best aligned to transmit cylinder pressure into crankshaft rotation. At TDC, the rotating assembly is completely aligned, and all the force in the world will not cause rotation. This is how bearings and blocks are destroyed. [Ask methanol or nitromethane racers about excessive ignition timing and how it can rip the mains out of blocks, and spit crankshafts on the pavement. ]

As we change how well we fill the cylinders, the time/load that the engine is under, and how well fuel is mixed with air, we change how quickly combustion occurs. Weight is load, and this alters time/load more than many realize. THIS is what determines the optimum ignition advance to get peak cylinder pressure to occur at the correct moment.

Less ignition advance, and we do not get best output and especially response. Excessive ignition advance, and the piston has to fight to reach TDC. This robs torque from the crankshaft's rotation. In most cases, we experience a drop in output LONG before we develop knock.

In first gear, we spend less time under load that we do in top gear. As a result, less heat builds up in the chamber, and more advance is required. This is all about TIME UNDER LOAD. But because lower gearing increases torque multiplication, we have to worry about excessive engine response in lower gears that will lift the front wheel, or break loose the rear wheel. Compromises, compromises, compromises.

This is why incorrect time and load when tuning on a dyno will lead you to incorrect fueling and ignition timing than what is optimum on the road or track. Inertia dynos are know for this. One single drum mass is NOT correct in the way it accelerates and loads and engine that is 500cc and another engine that is 2500 cc. Less load than what actually occurs on the road/track will lead you to engine management calibrations with too little fuel, and too much ignition advance than the engine wants in actual operation.

This is basic introduction to engine operation, and I hope it helps,

-Wayne

Each time you get a ping/plink/knock, two things happen:
1) The rings micro-weld to the bores, and then tear loose. This is devastating to ring/bore seal.

2) The hydraulic wedge of oil in the bearings clearances of the connecting rod and crankshaft is squished out of place and we get metal-on-metal contact. As you might assume, this is not a good thing.

Knock sensors and active control are great for preventing catastrophic damage, but tend to lead "tuners" to excessive ignition advance and the related damage that occurs. The best systems used in racing detect crankshaft speed (slowing down near TDC due to excessive cylinder pressure) and ionization across spark plug gaps to reduce ignition advance prior to knock occurring. As well as keeping pre-ignition from getting out of control.

I hope this helps,
-WT

Makes sense. Trusting in a knock sensor could cause tendency to advance timing too much.

Got that,,,,,,,,,

Power-Tripp said:

Nox,
Yes, I have mapped all R3 models in various states of tune. Various exhausts and intake systems, all the way to built engines with custom intake and exhaust systems. What do you need?

In first gear, we spend less time under load that we do in top gear. As a result, less heat builds up in the chamber, and more advance is required. This is all about TIME UNDER LOAD. But because lower gearing increases torque multiplication, we have to worry about excessive engine response in lower gears that will lift the front wheel, or break loose the rear wheel. Compromises, compromises, compromises.

This is why incorrect time and load when tuning on a dyno will lead you to incorrect fueling and ignition timing than what is optimum on the road or track. Inertia dynos are know for this. One single drum mass is NOT correct in the way it accelerates and loads and engine that is 500cc and another engine that is 2500 cc. Less load than what actually occurs on the road/track will lead you to engine management calibrations with too little fuel, and too much ignition advance than the engine wants in actual operation.
-Wayne

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Thanks Wayne! I do plan to do internal mods to my R3T possibly as soon as this winter,,,,meanwhile I want to see if I can wring a bit more out of it with just timing mods. Mine gained a bunch of torque with the simple mods I did this past winter. I made my own crossover, removed the sec throttle plates, fabbed an airbox using K&N's and with a moderate fuel map brought it up to 159'/lb with excellent driveability and fuel mileage.
What I was wondering is what can you suggest for ignition mapping,,,I'm not impressed with the Dynojet product, although the PCV seems OK for fuel mapping. If Dynojet or Tuneboy are the only way to go then so be it. I just wanted some feedback from someone who has actually done BOTH fuel and ignition maps (such as yourself).

I do appreciate your insight on the drawbacks of inertia dynos. I have run into similar situations with automotive engine only dynos/calibrations when compared to the same engine in a vehicle and on a chassis dyno as compared to real-life, down the road torque, driveability, and mileage.
Thanks again for your time, Dale

In order to modify ignition advance, you will need to use TuneECU or TuneBoy. You will need to load the bike correctly, or all work is BS.

On the Touring, the stock plenum helps make good resonance at engine speeds up to 3500 rpm. Triple RU-2780 filters will reduce cylinder filling in this range, but will help from 4000-5000 rpm. Above 5000 rpm, the restriction is the stock header.

Different intake and exhaust systems develop completely different resonant waves. As a result, each requires considerably different ignition advance calibrations.

You need to give the engine WHAT IS WANTS, NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT WANTS. This is why "auto-tune" is BS.

I hope this helps,

-Wayne

Power-Tripp said:

On the Touring, the stock plenum helps make good resonance at engine speeds up to 3500 rpm. Triple RU-2780 filters will reduce cylinder filling in this range, but will help from 4000-5000 rpm. Above 5000 rpm, the restriction is the stock header.

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And on a Standard? - frankly NOT impressed with how K&N's work under 4000rpms. So I've junked them. Most of my time is spent between 2500 and 3500. Seldom above 4000. Seldom below 2250. Just made something using the OUTER plenum seems (subjectively) better than both but not much. Louder though which for me is not a plus. Jardine headers and Sams Thugs (stifled a bit)

The best intake system I have found uses a single Pipercross 550 series filter and a velocity stack plate that I built. It took several generations to find what the R3 wants for length, taper, offset, etc.

This really enhances output and response. But they are very time consuming to produce.

Power-Tripp said:

The best intake system I have found uses a single Pipercross 550 series filter and a velocity stack plate that I built. It took several generations to find what the R3 wants for length, taper, offset, etc.

This really enhances output and response. But they are very time consuming to produce.

Click to expand...

Would you consider building one for me? (Touring)