Nitrous?

REGULATOR said:

W. Tripp,
do you think a system could be figured out and worked ? I know nothign about NOS..

and more importantly, would this be a better alternative, or shoudl I just pony up the cash for a set of Nevs cams, or keep savign my pennies for a Blower ??

And yes I realize a good used busa or similar is the best way to go drag racing....

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Yes, it is fairly easy to set up a safe nitrous system, especially if you are only looking for modest gains - 50-75 crankshaft hp with a full bottle (less as the bottle pressure drops). Compared to the price of cams and/or supercharger, nitrous comes out ahead, but they can't really be compared (apples-to-oranges). If you are happy with your current power on the street and only want more at the track, N2O is a good way to go. If you want more on the street as well, you may want to pill down the nitrous for the street, and use larger pills (jets) for the track.

All it takes is a call to a couple of the better known suppliers. You can buy a full kit, designed by a single supplier that will customize it for you. Or you can buy different parts from different suppliers.

You will have to mount the nozzles, solenoids (possibly fabricate mounts), and do a bit of wiring and tube routing. The biggest issue will be tapping into the fuel line, but this is nothing big. You will also need to decide on how large of a bottle you want and where you can mount it. Sometimes it is easier to use two smaller bottles than one larger one. If you are willing to use a system that shuts down if the throttle is not open 100%, you and drill and tap the adapter under the throttle bodies to mount the nozzles.

I would suggest staying away from aluminum nozzles (they crack under vibration) and going with stainless ones from Edelbrock or Wilson. At this power level, the Wilson V-force nozzle is good and will come on smoothly. Nitrous Express has some small and light solenoids for bikes that work well, and I especially like their progressive solenoid controller for use with bikes, but the last time I talked with them, they still did not offer stainless nozzles.

Stay away from hard lines from the solenoids to the nozzles, and use the hard plastic tubing that comes with most kits today.
N2O bottles are nothing more than fire extinguisher bottles with a high flow valve and a tube that feeds from the bottom of the bottle. (no tube is needed on small bottles if you mount them inverted. If you can't find a size you want, it is easy to order a valve from a nitrous supplier and mount it to a small fire extinguisher bottle. Carbon wrapped bottles are a bit lighter than normal bottles, but cost much more. The small carbon-wrapped bottles for bikes and snow mobiles (sleds) can cost as much as the large 12 pound carbon bottles. You will want a spare bottle (or spare set of bottles).

If you buy a kit from a supplier, throw away the cheap relays that come with the kit and buy some good ones that are fully potted (water proof) like those from Bosch, Hella, etc. Or go to the new solid state relays that cost more, but are incredibly fast and reliable. Make sure all of your wiring is done with heat-shrink connectors (not the cheap ones with PVC covers).

Buying nitrous from speed shops is stupidly expensive. If you are not going to go through enough N2O to warrant buying a mother bottle and filling station from a gas supplier, find a local racer with this equipment and work out a good price. Make sure your bottles are completely empty and have been chilled overnight before filling. Weigh the bottles before and during filling. At the track, keep the bottles warm, but not hot - especially between runs.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/nitrous_systems/nitrous_main.shtml

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/power_sports/home.htm

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/content/view/17/35/

There are other suppliers as well, but these I have experience with.

And remember, do not call nitrous "NOZ". This is a Hollywood term that the 'boy ricer' crowd uses. It will set you up for paying stupidly high prices and getting strange looks (and rolled eyes).


IF you decide this is something you are serious about, I can help. Send me a PM and we can talk via phone. If you want to get really serious, I have a friend that makes annular discharge wet and dry nitrous plates for bikes, that leave nozzle spray patterns (and performance) in the dust.

hey tripp,
what's your opinion regarding turbo/supercharging? a lot of guys at work ask about the rocket with these setups.i don't really know what to say,being that i've not run nor ridden either.

greg

Goodfellow,
I have NO experience with a forced inducted R3. But I do have experience with turbo'd 'Busas and 'Herdleys', and I wouldn't recommend this for 99% of the good riders I know. At 100mph, more than 50% throttle and you are looking at sky... very temperamental, and not fun in the twisties.

It is hard to beat forced induction for hp/Dollar spent, but this may not be what you really want in the end. With an easy 6-6.5% more hp per pound of boost, many wind up with more power than they really like to ride, and wind up short-shifting before boost comes on - but the power is available if and when you need it. The low compression and low cam timing R3 lends itself well to forced induction. The big thing is that the cost of the supercharger kit does not include the time (and money) spent tuning the system after it is installed, this is not a small project - ask Hombre.

Personally, I really like the idea of a centrifugal supercharger, like the Rotrex, on the R3. Air flow comes on as the revs climb, and makes this a controlled rush to the redline with mild manners at lower rpm. Compared to N2O or many turbo kits that come on abruptly, the riding manners for a centrifugal should be very good.

I feel that Vortech has a unit that may be really good for the R3's flow needs as well - it is just that no one has developed the mounts and drive needed - a fairly good job, but not too hard. This could be a good bit cheaper than the Rotrex kits if done right. It could be very compact if done with a water-air intercooler (mounted at the throttle bodies) like the very efficient Laminova cores. I have a box of these cores gathering dust in my garage.... Hmmmm. Or it could use E85 without an intercooler, but this may not be good for long road trips where E85 is scarce.

What a forced induction R3 likely will want (others like Hombre can add input here) is slightly taller gearing - especially at cruise speeds. The shaft driven differential on the R3 will make this an expensive proposition with custom gear(s) needed.

It all depends on what you want in the end.

I have a good collection of superchargers that range through multiple Roots designs, centrifugals, Lysholm screws, turbos of various sizes and AR ratios (YES, Turbos are still superchargers), and even a Latham axial-flow. But most of this is for cages. Bikes are different beasties, and need to be treated (and modified) for the desires of the rider - most don't really know what they want, they only think that they do.

IMHO, the R3 has more than enough displacement to make the torque required to terrorize the streets. The problem is that it is severely de-tuned and is NOT efficient - it doesn't make good torque/liter numbers. I think this can be easily solved - at less than the cost of a supercharger set-up.

Consider what you really want the bike to do, and how you actually spend most of your time riding it. Then balance this with what you can spend without getting carried away or buyer's remorse (important). You may think you want a really high dyno number, when all you really want is enough performance to take on most of the local guys and still ride like you have been riding. There will always be someone faster.... always... ask John Force (who, by the way, is now relocating to NC).

Sorry about the book length post. -WT

W. Tripp said:

Sorry about the book length post. -WT

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Wayne, your posts are all "meat" (facts) and all "lean" (informative... no BS).

I choose the supercharger route precisely because of where it places the torque... the upper RPMs. If you look at the big turbo R3 conversions, they make way more torque at lower RPMs, but become uncontrollable because of this. The comments from their owners reflect the results... burning rear tires throughout 2nd & 3rd gears. If one wants a pure drag race R3, this could be controlled with a drag slick and would no doubt be quicker in the 1/4... but that's not the bike I wanted to build.

The only thing I'd like to add, is that when you do have the additional power on an R3, you can reach 130 MPH very quickly (way before 5th gear). Above that speed aerodynamics becomes a huge factor, not just in better acceleration and top speed, but in controllability. So if you're contemplating boosting your R3 above the 200 HP mark, give serious consideration to a fairing (not a flyscreen or windshield), and your riding position. The near "laydown" position of my R3 makes it both faster and more controllable. It also improved handling. Now that I'm used to it, I even prefer it to the "sportbike" position of my BMW K1200S. BTW, my IC SC R3 makes my fast K1200S feel like a toy.

Dyno results TTS vs MY turbo and winner is ......
My turbo torgue stay over 200nm/all rpm....and you dont like torgue like this

Uncontrollable.... i dont singn that argument....

Show your own dyno results....ok
My dyno is very "tight" and dont give any "plus" horse or torgue

That NOS in street bike is lost money for nothing

hombre said:

Wayne, your posts are all "meat" (facts) and all "lean" (informative... no BS).

I choose the supercharger route precisely because of where it places the torque... the upper RPMs. If you look at the big turbo R3 conversions, they make way more torque at lower RPMs, but become uncontrollable because of this. The comments from their owners reflect the results... burning rear tires throughout 2nd & 3rd gears. If one wants a pure drag race R3, this could be controlled with a drag slick and would no doubt quicker in the 1/4... but that's not the bike I wanted to build.

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TurboR3 (Jarmo?),
Not a bad graph, and many times better than most turbo kit bikes IMHO. Most kits are poorly matched for the application, yours is pretty good, but it looks like you may be over spinning the compressor, or may need a bit more flow. Have you tried a slightly larger AR or clipping the turbine wheel slightly? Maybe just a polish job on both sides would do the trick - usually good for 3-4% more flow.

Not everyone would feel that any particular kit or system is "perfect", that would depend on what the rider wants, and how and where they ride. A rider in Oklahoma City (large flat landscape) will want something different than a rider in Deals Gap (lots of twisty roads in hill country), and someone in Denver, CO (higher altitude) may want something completely different for their riding habits. Most are completely happy with stock, and some simply just want to be different.

The trick is finding what best meets your needs, not always what you want.

W. Tripp said:

TurboR3 (Jarmo?),
Not a bad graph, and many times better than most turbo kit bikes IMHO. Most kits are poorly matched for the application, yours is pretty good, but it looks like you may be over spinning the compressor, or may need a bit more flow. Have you tried a slightly larger AR or clipping the turbine wheel slightly? Maybe just a polish job on both sides would do the trick - usually good for 3-4% more flow.

Not everyone would feel that any particular kit or system is "perfect", that would depend on what the rider wants, and how and where they ride. A rider in Oklahoma City (large flat landscape) will want something different than a rider in Deals Gap (lots of twisty roads in hill country), and someone in Denver, CO (higher altitude) may want something completely different for their riding habits. Most are completely happy with stock, and some simply just want to be different.

The trick is finding what best meets your needs, not always what you want.

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Just like that.... ok!!!!
That Jarmo is different person and he is spesialist for turbos: http://www.proboost.fi/

in Finland and Scandinavian.....

Sorry about that.
I saw the name on the dyno sheet and ASSUMED it might be you.

What turbo are you running? Is it a custom set up, or off the shelf unit?

W. Tripp said:

Sorry about that.
I saw the name on the dyno sheet and ASSUMED it might be you.

What turbo are you running? Is it a custom set up, or off the shelf unit?

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Thats ok ,dont worry......

Turbo is bolt-on kit wiht Garrett and PC.....easy set instal and drive

TurboR3

You've got an old TTS chart there. Here are the latest R3 charts I've seen from TTS utilizing stock cams, stock exhaust, and stock fuel pump (a better comparison to your bike). You can dyno race them... no doubt you're a winner.