Greetings from Ukraine.

fascinating and confusing history.

One couldn't put this thought in better words.

History can't be divided into black and white, just as it can't be objective. There are always to sides of the medal. For example, Russian (and Soviet) historians always proclaimed that Napoleon never conquered Moscow, instead, the city was burned down to the ground by Russian troops and ashes were left for Napoleon to enjoy. However, Moscow is in the list of the capitals Napoleon has taken. This list circles his magnificent sarcophagus in Paris.

It is extremely hard to figure what was happening long time ago, as chronicles were always bias. Which is understandable. Most of these guys were supported by their governments financially, so they had twist some facts.

As to Ukrainian history... Well... It's filled with events, glorious and disgraceful both. Again, hard to figure out how they really took place. Especially considering the fact that Russia (as an Empire), just as USSR later on, did their best to belittle and depreciate any achievements of its colonies (republics, in Soviet terms). They also tried very hard and, unfortunately, mostly succeeded in deleting national identity of non-Russians. This was done through forcing Russian as a main language in all spheres of life, developing and promoting a lifestyle of a Soviet Person. Tovarisch, yep. National traditions and cultural cultural characteristics were meticulously stomped into ground or at least looked at with condescension. Results? Take a look at Belarus. They have their own language. Theoretically. Practically though you won't hear anyone speaking Belorussian in the street. And most of the people who do are considered hostile to current regime. Nationalism is frowned upon there.

They also referred to the peoples in the Transcarpathian region as Rusyns

There is a small ethnical group known as Rusyns. I don't know much about them. There is an article in Wikipedia that sheds some light on the subject. At the same time, it's highly complicated to say what culture dwellers of Western Ukraine carry. That part of the country has always been under the rule of neighbouring states. Austro-Hungarian empire, Poland, you name it. Needless to say that all these cultures have left their trace. Even today in Lviv, for example, people speak a language that has numerous words and grammatical structures borrowed from Polish and Hungarian languages which were morphed into local dialect. Speaking of Transcarpathia including Mukachevo which you've mentioned... I have huge problems understanding locals there, even though I can understand classical Ukrainian perfectly.

I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that my son was referring to the Ukrainian women as prostitutes.

Given such a warm welcome here and overall courtesy of this forum, I'd never expect such an indecency.

So, the common thread would seem to be that we all share a great disdain for Putin the Oligarch and the direction he has taken his once, nearly estimable country?

Unfortunately I have to say that Putin is not the reason why Russia is doing what it's doing. Putin is a product of that society. I am absolutely sure that he IS a legitimate president. Granted, there was some fraud during the last elections, but I can assure you he'd still win in the first stage of elections. Moreover, if Putin disappears right now, Russian will find and elect Putin-2. You'd be surprised how many people blindly support him. It must be some kind of deviation. People there need a Czar. Not a president, who is in fact a manager on nations payroll. No. They need a God's anointed Czar. Any government is sacral to them. That's part of the reason there is so much hatred towards Ukrainians nowadays. We've decided that Yanukovich has gone too far, so we threw him down. That just doesn't fit their paradigm.

There is a second huge part of Russians which is pejoratively called "sovkodrochery". Direct translation would be something like "those who jerk off to Soviet Union". These guys dream of going back to Soviet era. Most of them are too young to understand what life was back then. Some of them are ready to stand in lines for hours just to have a chance to buy soap or hardly eatable sausages in exchange for military power. They want the other world to fear them. That's their goal of life. I know it sounds unbelievable, but I assure you I am not lying. Yes, they honor Stalin. And yes, they see Putin as a "hard hand" that can lead Russia to the glory (yeah, right) of the USSR.

I feel that I am writing things normal people would have problems understanding, yet it's just that inane.


I think there is a difference between Putin and simple Russian nationalists. Putin is playing a nationalist. While people are going crazy with hatred, false patriotism and thirst for occupation and blood, he's throwing more and more billions to his stash. I don't think he has any nationalistic feelings. What he definitely has is a superiority complex. That's why anyone who's trying to ruin his plans and sway his throne arouses fear and aggression in him.

We should probably fly into Budapest, rent some bikes, and ride into the Ukraine to discover our "roots" and hopefully not get our asses kicked along the way.

That'd be some trip. Would you decide taking it, rent a BMW R1200GS or something like it. Most of the roads here can be dangerous to those who are accustomed to good tarmac. Huge potholes out of the blue and other surprises. The further you go off the main roads, the worse it gets.

And of course, I'd be more than eager to help you with planning such a trip. Come to Odessa and one night of beers is on me.
 
I would love to do this.
 
Dr. P.O.N., I have initiated a private "Conversation" with you.

Please select the envelope icon above to link to it and I will look forward to your response via the same mode.
 
Dr. P.O.N., what a great, enlightening post, especially your insights about Putin. I viewed him as first and foremost a nationalist while you correct that erroneous characterization. It is difficult to those like me on the outside looking in, in spite of reading and research, to determine a foreign leader's true nature. Whatever he is, he certainly exploits the nationalist feelings of the populace. Whatever he is I don't consider him to be a danger to the west, only a strategic competitor that can be very troublesome. The Russian GDP is dwarfed by that of many western economies and it's ability to project power abroad limited.

It was my understanding that Yanukovych's overthrow was because of his his tilt eastward and his seeming alignment with Russia, somewhat understandable given the number of ethnic Russians in the eastern part of Ukraine and it's shared border with Russia.

I mentioned to Phil in a PM that several years ago I had the opportunity to attend a lecture and then afterward speak with a former senior KGB officer who operated in the U.S. He was also one time head or very high ranking officer in the Komsomol. One of the things he pointed out was something that you noted, the large number of Russians who long for either the Soviet days or a strong central figure, that a free flowing democracy like ours and western Europe's was something of an oddity, which is most understandable given Russia's history. He also chastised us for being more interested in Hollywood and sports than world affairs.

And I found your comments on the languages in western Ukraine and Trans Carpathia to be extremely interesting, clarifying some of the questions I had about the influences on those dialects . I could write pages on what I have learned about the Russian and what was characterized as "Russian compliant" languages of eastern Europe and western Ukraine, to include the Uralic influence common to some of those languages, as part of my journey of discovery. It's just fascinating to a westerner with roots in the area.

Thanks so much for this post and I'd love to visit Odessa. I was somewhat prohibited for ten years after my Navy retirement from visiting Russia and certain former Soviet Block countries because of what I did in the Navy. That's gone now so perhaps one day soon. Would need a translator and fellow beer (or vodka) drinker like you though unless English is common there. I've been in the Black Sea several times on a Navy cruiser but Cold War tensions prevented us going anywhere near Odessa. We would generally be intercepted by a Soviet warship that showed us for our incursion in their "lake". I understand you've got some great beaches in Odessa, always a plus.
 
Dear Mike,

because of the notion Phil has made earlier in this topic, I'd like to address only some parts of your message here. You won't miss out on anything though.


Here's the funny thing. Russian cannot be considered to be a truly Slavic language. The matter of fact is there is an overwhelming number of discrepancies between Russian words and historically Slavic ones. I mean the roots are different. Any person who speaks Ukrainian would understand (to a certain degree) Belorussians, Bulgars, Serbs, Slovenians, Slovaks, Poles, Czechs... list can go on. Russians have problems communicating to these nations, unless they know one of their languages. There is also a story about one of the main lexicographers of Russian - Vladimir Dal. The story is as interesting as it is long and complicated. The main idea behind it is that Dal was not systematising the language, but editing it. Creating a new one, if you will.

Here is the table showing discrepancies I've mentioned. Just a small list.



I understand that you don't know the meaning of these, but I am sure you can simply compare the letters. We do use Cyrillic alphabet, but the words here sound pretty much the same.

Would need a translator and fellow beer (or vodka) drinker like you though unless English is common there.

You wouldn't have a problem finding an English-speaking person in a large city. Just look for someone young. As I have said, I'd be more than happy to be your guide, translator and a fellow drinker in Odessa. So one city you've got covered for sure. However, I don't drink vodka. When it comes to spirits I prefer single malt whisky and good rum. Again, that wouldn't be a problem in my city.

I will be able to hook you up with good English-speaking guys in Kiev, motorcyclists or not. Pretty sure that I'd be able to find them in other major cities here. That wouldn't be hard to arrange in our Internet era. I'd just need to call up and/or message some buddies of mine.

We would generally be intercepted by a Soviet warship that showed us for our incursion in their "lake".

I'm so glad things have changed since then. We have US military vessels coming into our port regularly now. All those "Sea Breeze" manoeuvres and just "casual" visits that get on the nerves of our northern neighbour so much.
 
Single malt scotch drinkers are a brotherhood unto themselves, I believe. I would be more than a bit surprised if the ol' Navigator is not a member in good standing as well. We all know about blue-water sailors' relationship with rum, too!

Cardhu, Glenfiddich, Lagavulin and their kin are like Mother's milk to me.

https://www.omniglot.com/soundfiles/ukrainian/cheers_uk.mp3

 
If it doesn't have a cork in it. It aint worth drinking !!!!!
Except for a Mason Jar or
Spirytus rektyfikowany with olives stuffed with anchovies For the vitamins
 
Spirytus rektyfikowany, aka, Polish Everclear or braindeath in a bottle!!!

Hey, Scott, whatever floats your boat! Some prefer the jackhammer to a velvet sledgehammer or, in my case a fine and dainty balpin hammer.

Dealer's choice...
 
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