Sidecar Flip
Living Legend
My 2.5 cents......
I'm gonna jump in here and say I don't believe that Hombre is stirring any **** at all but rather asking some pointed questions and giving some good advice with Nev Lush backing it up. If equal length headers didn't work, I presume all high performance cars would use stock cast iron log manifolds like their showroom counterparts do and, lets see, the thin wall stainless log manifold that our beloved R3 has clamped on from the factory.
Here you have a guy (Hombre) who is charting waters that no one has ever trod with a Rocket before and simply because of that fact he has every right to ask questions and make statements pertaining to performance because he simply is the expander of the performance envelope of the R3.
I, for one don't have the money or the cajonies to experience that envelope but I respect what he's attempting to attain. Having said that, I always listen intently to what he says and while I sometimes disagree, I still respect him.
There is no way an equal length header system will look aesthetically pleasing on any exposed engine, especially on a bike. As naive as I am about gas scavenging and firing pulses, I still know that an equal length header system beats an unequal length system for scavenging efficiency hands down. Will it look pleasing............hell no. The Preds look nice. So do the Jars. Walt isn't into aesthetics, he's into performance. I can't at all fault the thrust of any of his posts.
I'm gonna jump in here and say I don't believe that Hombre is stirring any **** at all but rather asking some pointed questions and giving some good advice with Nev Lush backing it up. If equal length headers didn't work, I presume all high performance cars would use stock cast iron log manifolds like their showroom counterparts do and, lets see, the thin wall stainless log manifold that our beloved R3 has clamped on from the factory.
Here you have a guy (Hombre) who is charting waters that no one has ever trod with a Rocket before and simply because of that fact he has every right to ask questions and make statements pertaining to performance because he simply is the expander of the performance envelope of the R3.
I, for one don't have the money or the cajonies to experience that envelope but I respect what he's attempting to attain. Having said that, I always listen intently to what he says and while I sometimes disagree, I still respect him.
There is no way an equal length header system will look aesthetically pleasing on any exposed engine, especially on a bike. As naive as I am about gas scavenging and firing pulses, I still know that an equal length header system beats an unequal length system for scavenging efficiency hands down. Will it look pleasing............hell no. The Preds look nice. So do the Jars. Walt isn't into aesthetics, he's into performance. I can't at all fault the thrust of any of his posts.
Please be aware that it's late where I am, and I'm a little bit squiffy (OK I'm pissed as a rat, but I have an excuse), and that me mother died a coupla days ago.
Right, this is how I see it.
Sam spent an inordinate amount of time, money and effort on his pipes, which are excellent.
Hombre has spent an inordinate amount of time, effort and cash on his bike, which is excellent.
Both of you are good at what you do. Both of you benefit the rest of us mere mortals. Both of you give the rest of us more than you will ever see back in terms of cash or good will.
Both of you are great guys, and both of you can be intolerable pricks if you think you are being maligned. As can I.
So can you both please kiss and make up before I have to punch the pair of you.
Have I gone too far now????
Right, this is how I see it.
Sam spent an inordinate amount of time, money and effort on his pipes, which are excellent.
Hombre has spent an inordinate amount of time, effort and cash on his bike, which is excellent.
Both of you are good at what you do. Both of you benefit the rest of us mere mortals. Both of you give the rest of us more than you will ever see back in terms of cash or good will.
Both of you are great guys, and both of you can be intolerable pricks if you think you are being maligned. As can I.
So can you both please kiss and make up before I have to punch the pair of you.
Have I gone too far now????
Neville Lush
www.nevillelushracing.com
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2007
- Messages
- 1,042
- Location
- Victor Harbor South Australia
- Ride
- Speed Triple 1050 Dirt Track sidecar,H2750Roadrace sidecar W800 Kawasaki
Shyte
To avoid possible shyte being thrown I would like to point out I have never seen and am not comparing any pipes to Sams. The Jardines I have seen plenty of and they have very much different headers.They can be tuned to make almost exactly the same PEAK hp as the equal length header 3 :1 we have tested. However the bike runs better and makes wider power with the 3:1. I have not made 30 different sorts of pipes for R3's but have been involved in tuning,making pipes,designing pipes for others to make for many years so arrived at a pretty good pipe design fairly quickly.Also it is possible many other folk could do this as well,many can do better than me I am sure.Just answered the question and put forward what I had learnt already.
To avoid possible shyte being thrown I would like to point out I have never seen and am not comparing any pipes to Sams. The Jardines I have seen plenty of and they have very much different headers.They can be tuned to make almost exactly the same PEAK hp as the equal length header 3 :1 we have tested. However the bike runs better and makes wider power with the 3:1. I have not made 30 different sorts of pipes for R3's but have been involved in tuning,making pipes,designing pipes for others to make for many years so arrived at a pretty good pipe design fairly quickly.Also it is possible many other folk could do this as well,many can do better than me I am sure.Just answered the question and put forward what I had learnt already.
travelguy
Turbocharged
hombre from the git go has seen my design styles. i didnt design a equal length system because i didnt want to.
got it ....good.
since the "answer" that an equal length system will "beat" any other why ask the question. think it will give you megs more power.. knock yourself out.... want one build it yourself. think jars are on this level... buy some
as im sure others who have gone down this road will atest there is a bit more than just equal length involved.
as far as a buisness model... what part of i did this for myself didnt you quite grasp.
flip you can believe whatever you want. you can make whatever you want.
so can i. dont like what i do... do it yourself.... think i dont have a clue... whatever
got it ....good.
since the "answer" that an equal length system will "beat" any other why ask the question. think it will give you megs more power.. knock yourself out.... want one build it yourself. think jars are on this level... buy some
as im sure others who have gone down this road will atest there is a bit more than just equal length involved.
as far as a buisness model... what part of i did this for myself didnt you quite grasp.
flip you can believe whatever you want. you can make whatever you want.
so can i. dont like what i do... do it yourself.... think i dont have a clue... whatever
travelguy
Turbocharged
feel free to post up the dyno showing only adding 3 kns get you 10 hp. silly me for saving my pennies for some cams by nev.
didnt see where nev stated he would have gotten 162 hp if they had put on kn's but maybe i missed it. since nev has done the most in tuning variables ill take his word on what he thinks the gains are by 3 kn's vs underseat.
wonder what part of the 152 was due to the underseat.
we can throw numbers around all day and it doesnt mean a thing. only way to compare is nev's equal length and mine on the same bike and same dyno. since the git go nev has had an open invitation to run my pipes. id love to see what he could pull out of them with tb.
you can spout all the performance guru stuff you want hombre. at least have the courtesy to present things in context.
didnt see where nev stated he would have gotten 162 hp if they had put on kn's but maybe i missed it. since nev has done the most in tuning variables ill take his word on what he thinks the gains are by 3 kn's vs underseat.
wonder what part of the 152 was due to the underseat.
we can throw numbers around all day and it doesnt mean a thing. only way to compare is nev's equal length and mine on the same bike and same dyno. since the git go nev has had an open invitation to run my pipes. id love to see what he could pull out of them with tb.
you can spout all the performance guru stuff you want hombre. at least have the courtesy to present things in context.
hombre
Nitrous
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2006
- Messages
- 1,021
Quoted from Wayne @ TuneBoy:
"This bike had already been tuned with the standard airbox and k&N filter so I just did four runs to get a baseline before the filter change. The best the dyno showed was 141.4 hp.
I then fitted the TuneBoy pod filters (under the bear claw) , added fuel over the upper part of the rev range and retarded the ignition a little.
The bike put out 151.2hp and made more from 3400RPM to the limiter.
http://www.tuneboy.com.au/images/RocketIII_TuneBoyPodsAndRemap_vs_RemapAlone.jpg
If you look at the dyno graph above you will see that the bike now makes its peak torque 1000RPM higher and it carries more torque through to the rev limiter.
I was shocked at the increase in power. I thought the intake was holding back the torque but never expected 10hp over such a large rev range."
"This bike had already been tuned with the standard airbox and k&N filter so I just did four runs to get a baseline before the filter change. The best the dyno showed was 141.4 hp.
I then fitted the TuneBoy pod filters (under the bear claw) , added fuel over the upper part of the rev range and retarded the ignition a little.
The bike put out 151.2hp and made more from 3400RPM to the limiter.
http://www.tuneboy.com.au/images/RocketIII_TuneBoyPodsAndRemap_vs_RemapAlone.jpg
If you look at the dyno graph above you will see that the bike now makes its peak torque 1000RPM higher and it carries more torque through to the rev limiter.
I was shocked at the increase in power. I thought the intake was holding back the torque but never expected 10hp over such a large rev range."
THE PUNISHER
Turbocharged
Hey Travel,Hombres a twat mate
thats why he packed his bags from the other forum and left in a huff.As you know i had Jars on my bike and I was seriously thinking of buying a set of your pipes just to see what Nev could do and get out of the old pig.Well maybe in a year or so if i get another rocket I will still do that,your pipes look **** hot and are making good power and every one that has a set loves them.SAY NO MORE
PS hows that RAM AIR of yours going Hombre.lol
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travelguy
Turbocharged
get well soon jd. hope you're keeping those other aussie holligans in line ...
once again hombre... wayne used pods and fuel and timing changes on a bike with tors and cat bypass.
show me where a stock bike added 3 kn's and got 10 hp. show me the difference in hp from underseat kn amd 3 kn's.
waynes base was a stock air box feed not the underseat kn.
once again hombre... wayne used pods and fuel and timing changes on a bike with tors and cat bypass.
show me where a stock bike added 3 kn's and got 10 hp. show me the difference in hp from underseat kn amd 3 kn's.
waynes base was a stock air box feed not the underseat kn.
hombre
Nitrous
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2006
- Messages
- 1,021
I just did... unless you are claiming that there is a significant difference between Unifilters and K&Ns. Read chart again!
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