Crash

[ksquared]

Thanks Amigo!
However, I find nothing about facial area impacts within the Hurt Report. What was offered uis only the blogger's opinion as far as I can read.
I do agree that wearing a helmet is the only way to go and that a full face would be safer than an open face.

Bull: I've made the point several times that the Hurt Report, while excellent research in it's day (circa 1980), is not the last word on the subject of motorcycle safety and, in several ways, is sorely outdated.

Here is much more recent data from the NHTSA

Facial Injury
There were 7,350 facial injuries sustained by motorcyclists in our data (Table 15). As
seen above, facial injuries were more common for unhelmeted motorcyclists compared to
helmeted motorcyclists (9.2% versus 5.7%). This data provides an unadjusted estimate
that motorcycle helmets are 37 percent effective at preventing facial injuries.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The interaction between helmet use and single-versus multiple-vehicle crashes is
displayed in the bottom two rows of Table 16. In both single-vehicle and multiple-vehicle
crashes, helmeted motorcyclists have lower odds of receiving facial injuries compared to
unhelmeted motorcyclists. In single-vehicle crashes helmeted motorcyclists are half as
likely to receive a facial injury compared to unhelmeted motorcyclists. Motorcyclists in
multiple-vehicle crashes are 66 percent as likely to receive a facial injury as unhelmeted
motorcyclists. Using the logistic model we estimate motorcycle helmets to be 48 percent effective at preventing facial injuries in single-vehicle crashes and 34 percent effective at preventing facial injuries in multiple-vehicle crashes.



From:
Motorcycle Helmet Use and
Head and Facial Injuries
Crash Outcomes in CODES-Linked Data (2009)

Study can be found at: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811208.PDF

Not looking for an argument - just providing information germane to the conversation.

 

[1olbull]

K^2,
My response was to someone's previous comments where they had referred to the Hurt Report. I am aware of your feelings about Hurt being out dated; however, I and many others in my field still give validity to Hurt as much of it is yet applicable in the general sense.

Thanks much for the NHTSA paper. I have saved this paper for future reference. It provides some good to know data to be sure; however, as you know this info is likely hearsay and not admissible in a civil or criminal trial. Because I am limited to dealing with the specific facts of each collision and not statistical generalities, it is of little practical case use to me. It is good for improving general knowledge and perspective purposes.

I do find this type of data to be paramount in providing information that allows the discerning rider to make a more informed decision regarding how he rides and with what gear. Key word here = discerning? It is also great stuff for training purposes.

I am VERY CAREFUL with stats as they can be made to say just about anything! Having not yet read through this NHTSA study, it seems to speak of helmets in general and not specifically about half helmet, open face, or full face or modular.
A Great Discussion, IMHO,
1olbull

 

[ksquared]

K^2,
My response was to someone's previous comments where they had referred to the Hurt Report. I am aware of your feelings about Hurt being out dated; however, I and many others in my field still give validity to Hurt as much of it is yet applicable in the general sense.

Thanks much for the NHTSA paper. I have saved this paper for future reference. It provides some good to know data to be sure; however, as you know this info is likely hearsay and not admissible in a civil or criminal trial. Because I am limited to dealing with the specific facts of each collision and not statistical generalities, it is of little practical case use to me. It is good for improving general knowledge and perspective purposes.

I do find this type of data to be paramount in providing information that allows the discerning rider to make a more informed decision regarding how he rides and with what gear. Key word here = discerning? It is also great stuff for training purposes.

I am VERY CAREFUL with stats as they can be made to say just about anything! Having not yet read through this NHTSA study, it seems to speak of helmets in general and not specifically about half helmet, open face, or full face or modular.
A Great Discussion, IMHO,
1olbull

The report may have practical use for you.

If you base certain opinions upon the statistical methodologies in the report, then the threshold question becomes whether the methodology (and your opinions based upon it) can pass muster under either the Daubert or Frye tests. If you survive the Daubert/Frye hearing, then your opinions will be admissible and any questions about the underlying data upon which they are based, in whole or in part, goes to the weight of the opinion(s), not their admissibility. Thus the methodology becomes a matter of cross examination. Hearsay won't be a factor since, as I'm certain you are aware, experts can rely on hearsay evidence in forming their opinions, if the hearsay is of a type which may be generally relied upon by experts in the field (such as police reports, in your case) and the hearsay need not be independently admissible. See generally Federal Rules of Evidence, R. 703. I'm not familiar with the rules of practice or of evidence in WA, so I have no specific opinion on that, but the preceding holds true, in some form or fashion, in virtually every state in the union.

*************************************************
STANDARD OBLIGATORY DISCLAIMER:

The above does not constitute legal advice. It is posted for general informational purposes only. No attorney-client relationship is formed by the posting of this material and you have no right to rely on it. I am probably not licensed to practice as an attorney in the jurisdiction where you reside. If these issues affect you - you should seek competent legal counsel in the jurisdiction where you reside. The law varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and what is stated here may or may not constitute the law in your jurisdiction.

So there!

 

[1olbull]

Of course you are correct, counselor. In 40 years, I have rarely been subjected to a Frye examination as the scientific methodologies that I use are taught and commonly used in my field.
It's those pesky expert opinions that cause the most trouble. Disappointingly, too many are stretched to appease bias.

Again, I generally don't become involved in what may have happened and stick to what did happen. Sometimes human factor issues are addressed in terms of what tested drivers faced with same circumstances have done. That's about as close to glass half full versus half empty I wish to get. I shall leave the magical stuff up to the Doctors, shrinks, Ph.Ds and actuarys.

Bottom line is; I don't care if a hundred studies report that helmets save lives. It has nothing to do with my job of determining liability in the collision. Helmet or no was likely not the cause of the collision. The following is a damages issue and not my arena.

 

[ROCKETHEAD]

Could give a rats ass about whatever study and your guys findings... Stephan how are you holding up? Can we send you a care package? Take care and be strong!!!

 

[1olbull]

Could give a rats ass about whatever study and your guys findings... Stephan how are you holding up? Can we send you a care package? Take care and be strong!!!

Apologies ROCKETHEAD! As the thread topic was simply entitled CRASH, I didn't know we were cramping your style or that you were the appointed thread sgt. at arms.

My wish is certainly not to piss anyone off and there was NO finger pointing, only a discussion pertaining to CRASH investigation from which I was learning a few things that would possibly make my motor riding safer.

Would you prefer we shut up or go to another thread or both perhaps? ted

 

[ROCKETHEAD]

Apologies ROCKETHEAD! As the thread topic was simply entitled CRASH, I didn't know we were cramping your style or that you were the appointed thread sgt. at arms.

My wish is certainly not to piss anyone off and there was NO finger pointing, only a discussion pertaining to CRASH investigation from which I was learning a few things that would possibly make my motor riding safer.

Would you prefer we shut up or go to another thread or both perhaps? ted

Nope your all good I am moving on... Just realized why I stopped visiting this site the last time. I will stick to the informative posts and refrain myself from...

 

[stephantmi]

Could give a rats ass about whatever study and your guys findings... Stephan how are you holding up? Can we send you a care package? Take care and be strong!!!

Doing better, getting the hang of things... but was told by surgeon that my back isn't healing as fast as it could, and I'll have to where the back brace for much longer, perhaps a year.

But I'm getting around and improving my new skills. A care package is not needed, thanks

 

[Rolltide100]

Stephan, glad you are improving, sorry the back is not progressing as well as hoped. Once we have the RAA IX shirts finalized I will get your size and we will send you one.
Take care my brother!

 

[ROCKETHEAD]

Doing better, getting the hang of things... but was told by surgeon that my back isn't healing as fast as it could, and I'll have to where the back brace for much longer, perhaps a year.

But I'm getting around and improving my new skills. A care package is not needed, thanks

Good to hear. I went on a high protein diet after my back surgery and it seemed to speed up the healing process... Good luck and keep the faith...