Clutch Parts Update

[hombre]

Regarding the lock-up clutch, I know of 4 supercharged R3 that have snapped lifter shafts now. Let me clarify my experience.

I had to bore my lock-up pressure plate out because Nev sent me the "old style" that would not accept my stock 2006 ball bearing. This was where Nev and Murray discovered Triumph had changed bearing and pressure plate for 2006.

Then I proceeded to fry my bearing and snap my lifter shaft. This was my own fault ("learning experience"). The lesson being: NEVER PULL CLUTCH ON MISSED SHIFTS OVER 7000 RPM!!! I have not experienced any problems since I learned this, but I don't even use the lock-up clutch to upshift. I only use it to downshift, and at stoplights. The adjustment of the clutch is critical. I only use the slightest clutch pressure to downshift... never pull full lever. I only pull full lever at idle... startup and stoplights. I recently inspected my lifter shaft and lifter piece when doing cam work, and this riding technique has kept them looking absolutely new. No wear whatsoever.

I've been asked about my use of a thicker bearing. I don't really know if the use of the thicker bearing is really necessary. I tried it because I was already set up boring the pressure plate. If you do use it, be FN careful to set the deck height on the pressure plate. This is critical, and you will ruin the pressure plate if you get it wrong! The bearing I used is Timken/Fafnir 9103K. I used the standard Triumph lifter shaft and lifter piece part numbers for 2006 models, and as I remember, was sent the re-designed parts.

Also, I would not recommend hardening the lifter shaft. The lifter piece is already hardened, and having 2 hardened parts working on each other would likely lead to failures elsewhere. When you mis-shift or mis-adjust with the lock-up clutch... something has to give. Better to have the simple lifter shaft break than something more critical, deeper inside the engine!!!

Aside from my initial learning experience, I have nothing but good things to say about the lock-up clutch. It handles 250 ft-lbs torque with ease... and I'm still using my original clutch plates from 2006!

 

[Sidecar Flip]

I would concur with not hardening the lifter shaft. Always let the most acessable part fail. Buckwas suggested hardening th shaft wich can be done by atmospheric furnace hardening. It's possible to case harden 0.005" depth, any steel no matter what the grade is as well as stress relieve it but two hardened parts against each other...something will fail.

The automakers have, for years purchased the cheapest 50X drawing quality material available. ddep drawn rocker arms and then atmospheric heat treated them. It's easier on die sets and much cheaper to make that way. The end part is just as good as alloy material, hard and durable.

 

[warp9.9]

Clutch

I am one of those captains’ that is learning by mistakes as Hombre said. I believe my problems come from improper adjustment of the clutch I broke my lifter shaft after 1000 miles and noticed a galling on it which I think is from the cable being tight enough to almost start releasing the clutch. I think this pulls the lifter piece forward enough to have the lifter shaft forks rubbing all the time and after using the clutch lever many times it is pulling the .100” throw of the clutch too much constantly flexing the lifter shaft until it fails.

On hardening the lifter shaft I am not sure it would hurt especially just case hardening it as Flip was stating in a atmospheric controlled furnace or perhaps pack carburizing, or carbonitriding usually using cyanide gases or carbon dioxide (2 parts carbon 1 oxygen) of course you must ensure you first reach austenite equilibrium (AE1 usually starts at 1340 deg. F for Eutectic carbon steels) this is where we build the austenite molecule a spongy mass that allows carbon atoms to move around and enter the austenite cells. Then the are trapped by one of the other critical points of heat treatment the controlled cooling to trap the carbon atoms in the cell forming Iron carbide which is about 5.67% (been a while could be 6.57% or so but I am in the ball field) carbon by atomic weight and forming either a martensite structure or in this case maybe a lower Bainite structure. Tempering harden steels is just as important to eliminate retained austenite which as stated is a sponge cell structure only good for arranging the structure of the steel prior to collapsing the cell to for the carbides for strength a ware ability. Most time the steel is cooled to a martensite structure and tempered to a bainitic or in some cases a pearlitic structure either way the point is to achieve the most homogenic useful structure.

Pretty deep Flip isn’t it but I can tell you speak the language. I enjoy reading you tech post as well as Hombre’s.
So I figure if the lifter shafts little forks are not in contact with the lifter piece all the time (as in what I think I messed up on mine) one could strengthen the shaft by heat treatment increasing the tensile strength and the lubricity of the oil will prevent any wearing of the two hardened parts. Of course I would not want to harden the lifter shaft as much as the lifter piece. Depending on the other constituents’ in the steel i.e. chromium, Vanadium, and other carbide forming structures.

I always told my students no steel is better then the other just better suited for the particular operation.

Anyway the way hombre uses his clutch does eliminate a lot of rubbing contact between the two pieces
And the clutch is adjusted right ( which it is obvious mine wasn’t) there is I believe enough lubricity that to harden parts can be used maybe if Triumph would look at two different hardenability levels or steels they can improve on these parts for guys like me to cut down on the learning expense.

PS sorry if this long winded post bored anyone.

Flip look at this site under section 4 macro maven custom macro for ellipsoid of revolution Mike has a few typo’s in it when he posted it for me but what the hell he got my last name right and as you will see that is some kind of smith and Jones name.
Also I do not know if you do your own programming but Mike’s books are excellent!!!

http://www.cncci.com/products/optional%20stop/spr06.htm#2

 

[goodfellow]

warp,
why don't you just incorporate the characteristics of both and draw down the hardness scale to enable a more pliant toughness to protect against shock fracture? this would seem to be a more viable solution to the problem. that way, static surface hardening won't be so prominent....


greg

 

[warp9.9]

clutch

You could be right all steel treatment is not just for hardness. Toughness is a factor or it would brake like class. Mine for instance I think is because of constant flexing of the lifter shaft do to too short of cable adjustment and then I am pulling it to far exceeding the throw of the pressure plate. and the fact that the little forks were rubbing all the time. I personally think the shaft should be larger I have the new cover Richard designed and then modified it after we found that it would not fit the engine with the lock up clutch. he then welded the lifter shaft boss on the cover so more clearance could be machined. I did notice when you put the shaft in the case (while not on the bike) it is binding when you try to rotate it (could be warped from welding heat) cause she spins freely in the old case like if you were going for a second round with a girl.
but both bearings are before the forks so I am not convinced it is the welding heat that is the problem. If I were Richard (with the exception of the age difference which aint much but when your approach 50 and lying about your age is out of the picture, I still wish I had access to the toys he gets to play with) I would weld first then line ream the bearing bores to ensure they are straight. Of course I do not know how many axies his cnc has I can see with 4 or 5 axies and a thicker piece of aluminum machining the hole piece instead of having to weld this. I don't know if Richard monitors this site and I have not told him about the little binding feel yet because like I said I don't believe that’s the problem and I surely respect a man who has worked so well at helping me he is one hell of a man in my book as well as Nev. without these people it would be harder to figure **** out. Of Course Hombre is on the top of my list also as well as many others but it would be a long list to type (so if there are captains’ out there wondering if they are on that list they probably are. My model is rob all the free knowledge you can!

As for your drawing idea drawing is a term used in a variety of forming operations or none as plastic deformation ability of steels, usually a misnomer for tempering.
If I am understanding what you are trying to say (make it not so hard) that is done on the controlled cooling of the heat treatment process (controlling the amount of martensite formed by controlling how low you cool it in the zone between MS (martensite formation start zone) and MF (martensite formation finish zone) start is typically 500 deg F for eutectic steels the key is to form the amount of martensite produce and then temper the rest to another constituent like upper or lower Bainite.
Due to the fact that martensite is the hardest finest microstructure you can obtain in steel. Next finest is Bainite then Peralite and in between is Trootsite and Sorbite microstructures.
With out tempering of steels right after cooling usually once the steel cools down to 170 deg F you are wasting you time heat treating do to retained austenite (the spongy mass trapped between the tetragonal cubic structure none a martensite.
Ok I have to take a break I am enjoying this to much and it makes me miss my last job teaching Physical and Chemical Metallurgy along with other machinist training.

Besides I am waiting for others to chime in so much is learned by listening to others opinions!!!!!
Thanks for your thoughts I appreciate it!
I also have to take a break I promised the other half I would make some fresh Kielbasa and some Golabki

 

[hombre]

I always knew Warp had alot to contribute... we just needed to hit his subject!

 

[warp9.9]

clutch

Thanks comment Hombre comming from a inteligent man as yourself means a lot to me.
Not quite the feeling I get when I twist the throttle but **** close
Know one has to worry about my head swelling because its hard to notice it while its up my Dupa. I usually notice the pain when thats happening and put my foot back in my mouth

 

[goodfellow]

Warp,
yes, you were correct in that I was referring to drawing down some of the the hardness with the oven.

I am also a little surprised that you actually make your own kielbassa. I've had kielbassa, but never had golabki. Is it simalar to kielbassa? sorry about getting off topic, but I like that type of food.

as an afterthought, are you running the stock springs ? are they still the same as far as compression values go ? does the clutch lever pulsate when engaged at idle ? I've had these little things cause some ridiculous headaches in the past with other bikes. just thought it to be possible....


greg

 

[warp9.9]

clutch and stuff

golabki is stuffed cabbage rolls, Kielbasa is a polish word for sausage, I usually stuff mine with either Polska Kielbasa (Polish sausage) or Szynkowa Kielbasa (ham sausage) I have about 15 different Polish recipe's and say a 100 of other races (alot of eastern block). And before anyone catches on and slaps me good before I bought my Rocket I played with my meat refining the smoker I built in my basement its just another hobby only I have to admit I am a expert on sausage making and various other meat processing I can Grind about 7500 pounds a hour down stairs and the smoker can handle about 300 foot of links or rope. **** this will explain it My last name is Szczepaniak. (good thing its one of the shorter version)
Now about them springs I am using the ones supplied by Nev with his lock up clutch they are stout. When my shaft broke I was more then 50 miles from the truck on my way to Daytona on the last day but she did not leave me stranded I am not as quick as Hombre but I figured out I could put her in first gear hold the clutch handle in now that the shaft was broke and the safety switch let the starter turn stand on my feet and hit the starter and away I went shifting up and when comming to a light I kept down shifting without the clutch and droped her in nuetral if I could not get a brake with the light. I then shut her off put her in first and waited for the green light and hit the starter again and away we go. Need I say I still beet up on every bike on the road on the way home after all the blower wasn't broke and She got me home Drove to the truck and right up on the trailer.I will most likely shift more without the clutch as Hombre pointed out. If you think your springs are weak I still have the heavy duty ones Richard supplied with the blower kit. And now I have some stock little injectors also
Keep in mind it is my fault it broke I am on the learning curve that Hombre talked about only thanks to him and Nev and of course people on these sites I have many tutors

 

[goodfellow]

warp,
my clutch springs are ok for now, thanks for the dibs...

the sausage is another matter though. you don't happen to sell that stuff on the side do ya? just thought I'd ask about that too.


greg