Lets talk L tables

Tripps · Jun 21, 2018

Neville Lush said:
Ha, this made me smile. Almost LOL. Where the heck will I find a customer who will pay for the time? Everyone is keen to get free tunes. It takes me two days to properly tune a 1199 Panigale. The gains are enormous for just mouse clicking, no hard parts. But no-one complains about the cost AFTER they have ridden the bike.

That's one of the things I've always wondered about Carpenter, does he dyno tune each bike, or just load his tune/program, whatever the proper term is, and check it on the dyno.

Claviger · Jun 21, 2018

Jvheli said:
I do have a CES system and Ramair. And I will share anything worth sharing! And I agree with @Neville Lush , getting a thorough tune in under three hours is really not possible. Just too much data to work with. However, you CAN get a usable ridable tune in that time, and thats what most are good with. Il happily pay for a great tune. Dont make any sense to me to shell out for the bike, the pipe nd whatever else, and then be a cheap ass with the tuner!

I agree it’s a lot of data, but I can assure you it’s not just “rideable”, he builds tunes to the best of the given hardwares ability and he doesn’t it quickly. I’ve watched him tune a number of bikes and he is highly efficient in his work developing the tune. When satisfied I’ve seen him turn off the bike let it sit for a bit to cool and then verify his work to ensure nothing untoward was going on.

Nels tunes aren’t just “close enough” maps, they’re dialed in precisely to the bike they’re on. Bikes he’s done hold many track records and championships, he’s not “some hack turning out power commander tunes” like most of the timers in the US.

Jvheli · Jun 21, 2018

Claviger said:
I agree it’s a lot of data, but I can assure you it’s not just “rideable”, he builds tunes to the best of the given hardwares ability and he doesn’t it quickly. I’ve watched him tune a number of bikes and he is highly efficient in his work developing the tune. When satisfied I’ve seen him turn off the bike let it sit for a bit to cool and then verify his work to ensure nothing untoward was going on.

Nels tunes aren’t just “close enough” maps, they’re dialed in precisely to the bike they’re on. Bikes he’s done hold many track records and championships, he’s not “some hack turning out power commander tunes” like most of the timers in the US.

Ok, just to be perfectly clear, I wasnt making a negative statement toward Nels, or any tuner for that matter. And if I seemed ungrateful for your help, my sincere apologies. What I am saying, is Id like to explore the L tables. I think the bike makes great power, but , like I said earlier, its a little herky jerky at very low speeds.

Ive had several bikes dyno tuned before, and some I was very happy with and some came back with ridability issues that irked me.

Claviger · Jun 21, 2018

Check out my guide to adding MAP to your PCV. It’ll sort you right out.

Seriously makes a significant difference.

1olbull · Jun 21, 2018

barbagris said:
Steve - for me it was (and is) NOT about RWHP. I would happily sacrifice some BHP for extended tank range through lower mpg - and to eliminate low throttle snatching.

I had as most used TPS values (because it's easier to understand without tools). What would we have done without @HansO?

I very soon moved to map/gear as I could feel anomalies in the matching of map to riding style. (I do not ride the same in all gears - I'll bet 90% of us don't). I modified Hanso's maps gear by gear. And I played with secondary butterflies to try and get less snatching low down. Worked to some extent.

But - As Rob says - the F/L switching was palpable and annoyingly right where I cruise. Forced the bike on to L for longer. (I did try forcing onto F - but the result was not as I wanted it esp at low throttle) On F for longer it was better but not perfect as the PCV was still TPS. Moving the PCV to MAP matching the Triumph values has made a HUGE difference. IMO ANYBODY with a PCV and A/T should make the switch. Rob's AFR map targets look rich - but so far I'd say overall I'm running marginally (c)leaner.

If you whack the throttle - It will however smell very rich and that worried me for a bit. But yes - it is ALL time. And so far (imo) worth every minute.

Chris,
Much appreciate you taking the time to explain this.
I put my first 500 miles on, changed oil and installed TORs and K&N 2780s. Six years ago, I too was hugely helped by @HansO.
He suggested I get the PCV+AT and then spent much time walking me through the installation of two of his tunes.
During that first six months or so, I discovered Nels at Two Wheel Dyno Works. Since then I have become spoiled by having Nels to tune my motor every year and keep it running like a top.
As a result, I have learned much too little about Tune ECU.
Another super-fortunate stroke for me was Rob @Claviger moving within 45 minutes of me. He got me through my omly issue so far when the primary TPS $hit the bed.
Now at just under 60 K on the bike, Rob @Claviger is doing my first valve adjustment. Only #3 intake requires adjustment and two 2.72mm pucks are on now on order.
The original plugs look awesome with perfect light brown color and minimal gap increase. Of course new plugs will also be installed.
I am a lucky dude having had the terrific help of these Amigos and this forum!

1olbull · Jun 21, 2018

Claviger said:
I agree it’s a lot of data, but I can assure you it’s not just “rideable”, he builds tunes to the best of the given hardwares ability and he doesn’t it quickly. I’ve watched him tune a number of bikes and he is highly efficient in his work developing the tune. When satisfied I’ve seen him turn off the bike let it sit for a bit to cool and then verify his work to ensure nothing untoward was going on.

Nels tunes aren’t just “close enough” maps, they’re dialed in precisely to the bike they’re on. Bikes he’s done hold many track records and championships, he’s not “some hack turning out power commander tunes” like most of the timers in the US.

FYI -
i contacted Nels about this "L" table stuff.
Nels stated, "They are used, but have to be blended properly with the Alpha N tables."
Over my head, but perhaps informative to you others?

Neville Lush · Jun 21, 2018

Penner said:
L-tables work better and finer than F-tables up to about 10% throttle.
To get an idea what to do with them, you can compare the numbers in F and L and adjust L-tables in the corresponding areas if you got AFR- data.
Anyway there is always a "transition area" of about 10% throttle opening around F-L switch, where the ECU uses input from both sensors and interpolates.
It really gets tricky if you use hotter cams, as pressure at the intake will raise.
In that case you will have to transfer 597-627 hPa numbers to the new area to get a start.

Penner is right as usual. Different cams make it harder to get right as the KPA changes more suddenly. Speedy says about the "acc pump" or enrichment problem with the R3 which is also accurate. I am not a scientist or highly educated, but mostly get the job done. It seems a little simplistic after reading every-ones explanations and descriptions, but I have found, that for me, the best way to correct the L tables is to ride the bike ( on dyno obviously) and look at the software live, and see where it needs altering. Since setting up specifically for EFI bikes in 2000 I have had a guarantee at my work. If someone comes in the door from another shop and I cannot improve the bike, there is no fee. No-one has taken my money yet, so either I am doing ok or a lot of others are doing poorly. Still I am learning, yesterday I learned more about tuning the Victory bike, actually it is learning how to adjust the bike with new software. But still learning, it is a good job to have, working in a tin shed.

barbagris · Jun 21, 2018

1olbull said:
During that first six months or so, I discovered Nels at Two Wheel Dyno Works. Since then I have become spoiled by having Nels to tune my motor every year and keep it running like a top. Another super-fortunate stroke for me was Rob @Claviger moving within 45 minutes of me.

Some folk are just lucky I guess. My current problem is understanding what the MAP tables are telling me.

Not having even access to a Dyno is a serious impediment. I need to see all the data simultaneously and real time. What would be seriously useful is being able to play the POD300 log data real time.

The Enrichment issue right now is not (I don't think) killing me. But for some reason at my cruising speed in 5th I am seeing quite a significant drop (numerically) in AFR numbers and a resultant "urge" which is making licence safe cruising harder than I'd like. The big plus has been a far more progressive power delivery which makes taking roundabouts faster and smoother.

Oh and for the HOME TUNERS - We all know the Speedo is optimistic. usually about 3-5%. I run a GPS speedo to be sure.
BUT - If the POD300 is to be believed my OEM Tacho is getting on for 10% optimistic.

I had hoped to get an accurate tacho installed this week - but we may need to be on "family taxi duty".

Claviger · Jun 22, 2018

The cam size causing vacuum challenges is what got me to go to the PC-V MAP mode, coupled with bigger injectors its a life saver.

Ok on your issue with cruising RPM. I’ll pm you.

Speedy · Jun 22, 2018

You can check your bike's tachometer against the tach in TuneECU. My gauge runs about 10% off to the high side also.

Lets talk L tables

Tripps

Retired superhero

Claviger

Aspiring Student

Jvheli

Nitrous

Claviger

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1olbull

Riding Motor Since 1950

1olbull

Riding Motor Since 1950

Neville Lush

www.nevillelushracing.com

barbagris

Mad Scientist

Claviger

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Speedy

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