Ignition Tables

Bratman

Standard Bore
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Toronto, Canada
Quick question; What (gears) do I4, I3, I2, and I1 correspond to in TuneECU (2010 Roadster)? I thought I4 was the table for 4th & 5th, I3 for 3rd, I2 for 2nd, and I1 for 1st, but was then told that one of the tables is also for neutral (?). I3 seems quite different in comparison to the others (more advance at lower throttle/rpm). Any help/confirmation would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
I1 = neutral, I2 = 1st, I3 = 2nd, I4 = 3rd, 4th and 5th
 
Hi,

Where does this statement?
In TuneEdit there are the same tables, but even Wayne Macdonald has never explained properly.

The only explanation it has given for the Speed Triple 1050, after the
I1 for neutral should be, and I2 for in gear should be.
For Ign(TP) and Ign(Map) e.g. There has been given no explanation.

BR, Tom


I1 = neutral, I2 = 1st, I3 = 2nd, I4 = 3rd, 4th and 5th
 

I asked Wayne MacDonald about the ignition tables and that's what he told me. In TuneEdit, I see I1, I2, I3 and I4 - there is no Ign(TP) or Ign(Map).
 
Haven't seen that on any version I have dealt with. I would assume it if for one of the other brands that TB works on. Notice there is no I3 and I4.

Send an email to Wayne and ask. And after you don't get a reply....
 
This not going to be popular, but needs to be said:
This is EXACTLY why so many are confused over what ignition table does what... TOO MANY VERSIONS, different makes/models, and different maps, and then there are two different interface software packages used by R3 owners - TuneEdit and TuneECU. It is easy for the new guy to take something from one place and incorrectly apply it to their engine/map/software. Just because you have a tool, does not mean that you should use it.

There is one easy way to determine which table performs what tasks... test it.
Pull a good amount of advance out of a specific table, then test on the dyno or on the track with the correct tools to see/detect what happens in each gear under differing conditions. If you don't own and know how to use a timing light, perhaps this is not something you should do.

Some should not be playing with engine management simply because they do not understand the result(s) of different changes in the ECU and in the engine, and they have no way of measuring them. Even though I have a fairly strong understanding of using an ocilloscope, I do not repair them because I do not understand their hardware and software and the relationship to their interface with each other. instead, I take it to a professional to perform this work. I see the limits of my knowledge, and do not exceed them. This is not to say that someone should not learn how interface software effects the ECU and engine, but that they should learn to do so with the correct way to measure the results, and to learn from someone that knows what they are doing, and has the correct tools to see the results.

That said, get a solid understanding on ignition advance and how it alters the combustion and output in the engine. Below is a cut-and-paste where I posted about this subject on another forum:

First, few motorcycle engines are knock limited on pump fuels - especially premium. Some are closer to detonation than others, but most OEMs make sure they are not close to the detonation threshold. [There are many reasons for this, but that is a long topic in itself.]

Think of ignition advance as nothing more than getting the most cylinder pressure at 15º-20º ATDC in order to leverage the crankshaft as best possible. If you fill the chamber better, or improve combustion, the chamber pressure rises. This causes a faster burn in the chamber - sometimes requiring less advance for best output.

Detonation usually sets in (for many engines on pump fuels) 1140º of chamber temp according to most technical papers. If you start the ignition event earlier by advancing timing, you have more time for the gasses in the combustion chamber to pick up heat (especially from the end burn regions of the chamber) before the exhaust valve opens. This means you are pushing closer to the detonation threshold with more advance, and why pre-ignition (chamber ignition before spark) and detonation (a sudden "explosion" of the fuel air mixture in the chamber) cause so much heat in the chamber and a drop (in most cases) in EGT.
[FWIW, changes in EGT and chamber temps usually are inverse to each other. Not always, but in most cases.]

With an EGA, you can see the onset of preigntion and detonation in the gas readings once you know what to look for. Most of the time, detonation can be heard without a set of "knock ears" or a "det can". And both of these are better than most knock sensors that must be set to detect noise in the correct frequency of the bore diameter. [Better options are just around the corner.] But unless the engine is highly modified to push closer to the detonation threshold of a specific fuel, output falls off with additional ignition advance well before knock occurs.

You have to get the fueling correct before you start testing ignition advance. Otherwise, you can push the engine into lean knock under load. [Low loads, such as at cruise, can be run to lean misfire without knock.] And knock generally occurs more easily at lower rpm than at higher rpm - especially with increased load. However, once knock starts, it will carry to higher rpm since you have caused glowing hot spots in the chamber - usually on carbon build-up on the piston. [A really good reason to keep the carbon build-up to a minimum.] Some engines are worse about this than others.

Since this is a Triumph board, I will say that some of Triumph's performance maps for their upgraded exhausts do have too much advance in places. Especially for warmer climates. The 1050 S3 Arrow maps are notorius for this. What "feels best" is not always the fastest or quickest on the road or track. Burst knock can usually be initiated in these engines at low speed by suddenly opening the throttle a large amount.

What may be good in lower gears or just on a quick blast through the gears, may be too much in higher gears or once you are pushing the engine hard in the twisties or on the track when there is considerably more heat in the chamber.

If you start out with a bit less than stock advance, usually you will find a point where output plateaus with a few degrees more ignition advance. Even more advance tends to cause a drop in output. So this gives you a window of advance for a given peak output. If you leave the advance at the lower limit of this window, you allow some room for warmer intake and chamber conditions. You really con't find these points on the street or track unless you have really good data logging with GPS and accelerometers. Even then it can be difficult. A little time on a dyno is worth the effort.

Also realize that fueling and ignition advance requirements for different cylinders may differ a considerable amount. Most of this is a result of differing coolant temps for each cylinder/chamber, but it can also be a result of interaction of pulses in the exhaust and intake. And few stock injectors flow the same at less than static flow. I regularly see 7-14% differences at under 40% TPS (lower duty cycles).
Rob's Dyno Service

I hope this gets you started, but I also suggest you understand what you are doing and what to look for from each change when it comes to mapping.
 
Messing with the ignition is beyond my pay grade, which, as a mechanic, is zero.
 
Now THAT's exactly why Wayne is working on my bike.