Darkside Review ???

Warp, there is no doubt that Art is very knowledgeable regarding motorcycle high performance. One of the areas where he goes wrong is that he can't seem to understand or relate to anyone else who doesn't share his vision of what motorcycling should be. You sometimes seem to share that trait. For some, it's all about extracting every possible ounce of energy or performance from a m/c. For others, it's not.

In not being able to respect others reasons for motorcycling, Art goes too far in his arguments. He simply can't agree to disagree. As you have no doubt observed his recent classless attack on CADfather on the other site, he goes over the point to where we don't have to put up with it anymore. His actions has created our loss here. Please put the accountability where it belongs.

You said, "...I am not sure if I would give up the safety of a MC tire verses the DS". This is a good example of how you and Art dismiss others concerns that the particular application of a certain tire to our motorcycle presents a safety hazard in itself. My concern regarding the Metzler is no less valid than yours is about DS.

Also, given the mindset that you and Art share, it would make sense that your discussions with the "tire engineers" would yield the answer that you want to hear. For all out balls to the walls performance, yes, a m/c tire is the proper solution. Perhaps a different set of criteria would yield a different result.

PeteOZ said:

Soooooooo. The major reason for moving to the Darkside appears to be longevity. The better handling and braking in the wet is a positive, and the tracking on off cambers and at low speeds is a negative (and not a bad one, based on reports). They are however, simply byproducts of the move to a car tyre. What is obvious from a lack of reports to the contrary, is that car tyres do not break loose when cornering any more easily than bike tyres.

So what exactly is preventing the bike tyre manufacturers from producing some of their models with a longer lasting, more heavily treadded (is that a word?) compound, such as used on cars. Is it simply the greed of knowing that profits would decrease as tyres would be replaced at much larger intervals, or is it something more complex ?

Am I just stupid in thinking that the introduction of such a tyre model would eliminate the need to install "car tyres" altogether ?

Pete

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Pete, I agree with hanso that you seem to have summarized the salient points of this controversy quite well. I would like to add my view from the bridge and/or some slight adjustments to your perspective.

1. It seems that the major reasons for going Dark are: longevity/economy; perceptions of better handling and braking; safety.

2. Better handling and braking in the rain might be a misnomer. Better traction in the rain may be a more accurate way of stating it. IMO, car tires generally compromise or diminish a motorcycles handling and performance under most ordinary circumstances. That said, many, including myself, at times, have felt that such compromises were more than substantiated by certain gains or perceived advantages of the car tire vs a motorcycle tire. In rain, the CT will be way more prone to hydroplaning than will any MT.

3. Loss of traction or the tendency for "breaking loose" between the two types of tires, in my experience is approximately equal, with the car tire having a distinct edge on flat and level roadways due to its much larger contact patch and more "aggressive" tread pattern. In turns and twisties, as well as for maneuvering otherwise, the car tire does require significantly more rider input and countersteering effort. This brings up a most significant safety issue in terms of the amount of time it will take each respective tire to react to a rider's input in an emergency maneuver.

The propensity for the motorcycle tire to outperform the car tire in nonlinear performance increases, IMO, as one gets onto the edge of the car tire's tread and then leans further up and onto the car tire's sidewall. Given that the car tires we see being employed in this community have unreinforced sidewalls, this begs a hard look at the safety implications which that may represent, too. That is simply my opinion based upon a good amount of mileage I have put on both tire types. I am not trying to foment an argument and opposing viewpoints are certainly welcome.

4. Your final point is not stupid whatsoever, as many, if not most of us have wondered the same things about tire manufacturers' reluctance to join in this general conversation. We all have pondered why more car-like compounds and tread patterns have not been introduced to the motorcycle tire market. Further to the point, we suspect that we have been grossly taken advantage of by virtue of our perception that those same manufacturer's have been price-gouging motorcyclists for many, many years. This is why, in order for this conversation to be more pragmatic, it would be desirable if the experts, designers and engineers from within the tire making industry were to participate fully in these sorts of evaluative conversations.

We riders are generally not expert in the technical matters pertinent to arriving at or devising acceptably accurate answers to the kind of questions this inquiry evokes. most of us have arrived at our own conclusions based upon "seat-of-the-pants" trial and error. Given that rider safety really is at the core of all of these issues, it would be a breath of fresh air if the tire manufacturers could deem us worthy of their participation in these investigations rather than to continue to simply deem themselves worthy of our hard-earned dollars and not much else. Perhaps they can justify their behavior as well as the nature and integrity of the products they offer to us rather than to continue to feed us the proverbial partyline?

BTW, Scott, that is one nasty looking meat you've found. Hope the new wheel/rim can withstand the forces that come with Warp 9.9!!!

warp9.9 said:

W
If you think you are smarter then the engineers Get real and share the dope your on.

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Actually Warp, I AM smarter than some of the engineers I know (several of who work for me), without being on any dope (that really is a rather inane and unworthy comment on your part).

You say "Get real".....I believe you are confusing reality with theory. Often, it is the engineers who are living in a theoretical, rather than real, world. The "reality" is that there have been no reports of darkside crashes due to tyre or rim failure. (sure, it doesn't mean there haven't been any, but I have not been able to find them reported anywhere on the WWW).

The theory therefore, is what the engineers you quote are saying, as it hasn't been shown to be correct in reality.

Modelling is a great tool for controlled testing, but doesn't always equate to reality. Our Sydney harbour bridge was destined to "collapse" according to many engineering naysayers back in the 30's, as it was a revolutionary design that couldn't possibly support its weight over the years(theory). Amazingly, it's going brilliantly some 80 years later, with 50 times the traffic (reality). I can show you statistical models that "prove" that 2+2=5, but in reality we know that simply isn't true. Same here with the crash and burn theories on the darkside.

Pete

TriumPhil said:

2. Better handling and braking in the rain might be a misnomer. Better traction in the rain may be a more accurate way of stating it.

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Thanks Phil, that's a much better way of phrasing rain performance.

Hard to argue with the rest of your neutral observations either, although I'm sure someone will

Pete

tdragger said:

Warp, there is no doubt that Art is very knowledgeable regarding motorcycle high performance. One of the areas where he goes wrong is that he can't seem to understand or relate to anyone else who doesn't share his vision of what motorcycling should be. You sometimes seem to share that trait. For some, it's all about extracting every possible ounce of energy or performance from a m/c. For others, it's not.

In not being able to respect others reasons for motorcycling, Art goes too far in his arguments. He simply can't agree to disagree. As you have no doubt observed his recent classless attack on CADfather on the other site, he goes over the point to where we don't have to put up with it anymore. His actions has created our loss here. Please put the accountability where it belongs.

You said, "...I am not sure if I would give up the safety of a MC tire verses the DS". This is a good example of how you and Art dismiss others concerns that the particular application of a certain tire to our motorcycle presents a safety hazard in itself. My concern regarding the Metzler is no less valid than yours is about DS.

Also, given the mindset that you and Art share, it would make sense that your discussions with the "tire engineers" would yield the answer that you want to hear. For all out balls to the walls performance, yes, a m/c tire is the proper solution. Perhaps a different set of criteria would yield a different result.

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OK TD I am not saying Art actions were good I am just saying that one should not xpect to be given his knowledge when one is a ball kicker. And yes Arts internet activity is anoying but at least no threatening like others involved with his being ousted from the site. And Frakly who cares except the ones that want soem of his knowledge and can not get it now. Say if someone wanted to know where he got my wheel done I bet he would just laugh. At either rate he is off the site and the people here lose. Now As for tire engineers instaed of believing what you subscribe to or doubting how I went in asking them about this DS idea why don't you call a word it however you like. That way you don't think I lead them onto any path. See if they tell you your nuts before you can get the conversation to move in any direction.

See if you did this you would not doubt what I stated I was told by them. I did some more checking on the guy who went down in Austrailia and it was do to improper braking not the tire speciffically he locked the front up and did not control things right. So again your idea that the Metzler is a bad tire and caused the accident is wrong. The guy only allowed him to postthe picture so guys would see how important it is to where a brain bucket. As for subscribing to the Metzler being a safe tire yes I do and without Art's influence. I have never had one slide out or wear out as it is so over xaggerated along with the brakes being bad whybecause they locked up twice on a guy with over 12K on his touring modle. That does not sound like its a bad brake it sounds to me like two fricken idiotsa in 12K pulled such a stuypid bone head manuver in front of him that he had to brake harder then normal and it locked up. nothing wrong with the brakes or the driver just the two bone heads in cages. Then oH the mirrors are crap bla bla bla man if you don't like the mirrors and want some fancy ones with turn signals on it put the ****ers on don't get on the site and try to tell everyone that owns a Rocket that the stock mirrors are crap to justify in your mind a way to buy new mirrors. This is just bull**** Triumph built a great bike and if you don't like it buy a honda and go away.


See in the end I am ok as I have grown use to Art and his wierd ways. So I get the benifit of his knowledge so long as I do not share what I get from him unless he states to put it out and well I am ok with that also. So in the end like I say he got kicked off and many people lose, and he gets kicked in the balls on other sites and yet people still lose. Hell the brake post was about breaks until some guy thought he would tell the guy his problem was he did not have a car tire. and the **** started. So my point is for the good of all aint it better to gain knowledge then to say well I wish I knew where he got that done. Because if you kick all the knowledge off the sites you will still have the Dark Side area to dwell in stupidity and lack of knowledge.

So I guess that means I can forget about the group buy. ****, that sucks !

Roughly translated ... "It's for me to know and you to find out ... if my friend can't play anymore, I'm taking my ball and going home"

HellFire said:

Roughly translated ... "It's for me to know and you to find out ... if my friend can't play anymore, I'm taking my ball and going home"

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Ahhhhhhh. Thanks for that, Hellfire. I nodded off 3 times in the first paragraph trying to insert punctuation to make sense of it, so I gave up.

Pete

rubber

Warp. We found the rear Diablo too soft in the sidewall,the rear tyre would slide easily in turns, unexpectedly. Put on a 250/18 Dunlop and it was immeadiately much much better.The dunlop was also taller giving more speed . This was with the carbon 18" wheels. 250 on the rim turned in better as well. Disclaimer: This is my personal experience, not a scientific fact. We were only mucking about with 228hp/255nm torque, no supercharger and no interest in saving $ on tyres...So your results may vary. Happy New Year.

HellFire said:

Roughly translated ... "It's for me to know and you to find out ... if my friend can't play anymore, I'm taking my ball and going home"

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nope you missed the point as usual and it would not matter anyway!! The point is you chased away the guy with the know how and the connections to many modifications and shops that can and will do the stuff. This was done for what 8 guys that like to bully their way around on this site and how many others who don't post much and or just read have lost a good source of information. Thats the real point the needs of a few mongers outweighed the needs of the many on the site.

PeteOZ said:

Ahhhhhhh. Thanks for that, Hellfire. I nodded off 3 times in the first paragraph trying to insert punctuation to make sense of it, so I gave up.

Pete

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Sorry about that I wish I had not woken you. Anything I posted that might have sounded smug was not directed at you.

Neville Lush said:

Warp. We found the rear Diablo too soft in the sidewall,the rear tyre would slide easily in turns, unexpectedly. Put on a 250/18 Dunlop and it was immeadiately much much better.The dunlop was also taller giving more speed . This was with the carbon 18" wheels. 250 on the rim turned in better as well. Disclaimer: This is my personal experience, not a scientific fact. We were only mucking about with 228hp/255nm torque, no supercharger and no interest in saving $ on tyres...So your results may vary. Happy New Year.

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Thanks Nev, I will keep that in mind do you know if the CF wheels had the 7.5 inch rim like the Triumph or if it had the normal 8.0 width that tire manufactures recommend? You are and always have been a great source of information with anyluck you will not get chased away either!!!!
You and yours have a Happy New year also