Consistently burning up R/Rs

[DEcosse]

.... there is a reason (3) of them have failed (within 15 minutes of runtime) ...

What is your criteria for determining your generating system is good during that first 15 mins, then failed?
i.e. What is the measured battery voltage when running before and after your fail point?

 

[Crotchburn]

Love being at work and seeing people helping me with my motoproblems and not being able to think and respond because i'm at work. #rage

Reading your responses now, will respond momentarily, thanks a ton for working on this with me

 

[Crotchburn]

So to what @DEcosse and @barbagris are saying re: shunt regs, from a load standpoint, it sounds like if there was a constant draw (for silliness's sake, let's say it's the starter just spinning constantly as the engine runs), the MOSFETs in the R/R would be less likely to fail due to heat bc they're not operating as often. About right?

RE: the PDM60, I'll look into it, thank you. The only reason I'd consider going through the hassle of a fuse panel elimination would be because at a certain point it's less work to just create a new wiring harness than it is to continue gremlin hunting in a 15 year old bike that has been through a wreck. I figure if I'm going to consider building a new wiring harness I may as well do something cool like a PDM because it is nerdy and cool as balls. That being said, I'd rather just save the $500 it'll take to do all that stuff and lean on y'all to help me fix this ish. lol

I hear you about the top entry, I haven't seen a top-entry m.unit. Given that I've got a 3d printer and wiring experience I think the cleanliness aspect of wiring it all up is not insurmountable given time and planning, but this all brings me back to the initial argument: I'd rather not have to turn to a project of that magnitude.

For troubleshooting's sake, would it be unprudent to just create new grounds\a grounding harness to recreate the grounding profile on the wiring diagram? It'd be a pain in the butt, sure, but I'm running out of ideas that don't involve just shotgunning new parts into poor, sweet, fatass Roxy out in my driveway.

@DEcosse, I don't recall what the exact voltages were, and to be fair, the 15-minute window is a guess. I bought the bike for $1200 (after it had been wrecked), got it home and found that the charging system wasn't charging, replaced the R/R with a $25 used OEM unit from eBay, tested it, found that it was charging (somewhere north of 13v but south of 15v), I went off for a ride, it died, I bought a new battery to get home (faster than waiting for AAA), found that it was no longer charging, replaced the R/R with another unit***, started it up, ASSUMED that it was charging, rode it for 10-15 minutes, stopped and tested it in a parking lot, found that it was not charging, hauled ass home, rageposted on R3O.







***before I replaced the R/R again, I found that the ground connector to the R/R was able to pull out 3\16 of an inch from the plug. Pulled the connector and found arc-flash damage w very very little carbon buildup, decided this is probably what is causing the problem because as @barbagris pointed out, everything is a ground problem always, fixed the connector so it would not back out of the plug any more prior to replacing the R/R because why the hell waste money on a new R/R I'm confident will burn if I don't make a change

 

[DEcosse]

This is going to sound curt and not my intention - just analyzing the information you have given:
First, you have no real data, just some generalizations
Then:
The system was already failed originally - no real failure analysis done (with conclusive data) and no real data provided to say it WAS resolved with the replacement R/R (sorry again if this sounds harsh, but a generalization that says you believe it was north of 13 but less than 15 says you are just guessing at it - this is the only piece of 'data' you have offered or even checked in the course of these three different configurations)
Then with a third R/R (second replacement) you did not even validate that this issue was resolved. Honestly it's hard to comprehend how you could just assume the third one would reolve the issue without even checking, before you rode it.
The fact that they ran for 15 mins, really suggests to me that they weren't EVER working properly and you were just draining your battery while riding - 15-30 mins is about average to discharge with a system that is not charging and running solely off battery.

I found that the ground connector to the R/R was able to pull out 3\16 of an inch from the plug. Pulled the connector and found arc-flash damage

This could potentially be the issue (and you may not even have had ANY of the three R/R actually failed UNLESS there is reciprocal damage on the R/R terminal).

Your best way around this is to replace the connector and re-terminate onto the wires - you will need a proper crimp tool for those terminals to ensure you have an adequate connection (after crimping, I typically additionally solder the joint to be sure it indeed has a perfect connection - important to use a relatively high wattage iron however as these are big wires and terminals!)
Furukawa QLW Series Motorsport Connectors - Corsa Technic

You could choose to either just repair the OEM wire with new terminal, or make up a new 'ground' lead direct to the battery negative (you can also do the positive, but you would have to put a fuse-older in-line adding two more connection points you would have to ensure would be stellar)

But before I did any of that, I would once again check the stator as I described and be 100% sure you do not have a failure there.
Honestly, this is my strongest suspicion as to what your problem really is.

 

[barbagris]

Also - it's worth adding : Stator failure is pretty well documented on R3's - R/R's less so.

The R3 actually draws a fair amount of power esp if you run FAST. The faster you go the more sparks you need.

I run mostly on motorways at slightly excessive (legally) speed.
I had my system voltage drop consistently with both (then) Halogen Headlights on main beam and both 55W Halogen foglamps on when I got above 130kph (GPS).

• Below 130kph, fine.
• Switch off fogs (or lights - because I have a switch in there) , fine.
• Change all lighting to LED, fine.

So my guess is that on an R3 with accessories the shunts are actually not all that loaded. Which may explain why we see fewer R/R failure.

Also worth mentioning that earlier bikes with the CatBox get very hot near the stator which could exacerbate deterioration esp if you do a lot of slow traffic work. My catbox "fell off" officer.

I have just fitted an R3 similar Alternator to my old Guzzi - and the mfr is VERY VERY insistent about adequate cooling for the stator.

 

[Crotchburn]

This is going to sound curt and not my intention

I can deal with curt, what I'd rather not waste time with is ineffective. Clear communication is clear communication, and as this is my... second? post, y'all don't know me from Adam and you're correct to second guess my abilities and methods. Like I said above, I appreciate your time, everyone. Hobbies are a lot more fun w gurus to guide you.

The system was already failed originally - no real failure analysis done (with conclusive data) and no real data provided to say it WAS resolved with the replacement R/R (sorry again if this sounds harsh, but a generalization that says you believe it was north of 13 but less than 15 says you are just guessing at it - this is the only piece of 'data' you have offered or even checked in the course of these three different configurations)

A generalization is incorrect. What I said is that I "found that it was charging (somewhere north of 13v but south of 15v)". I tested voltage with it running after replacing the R/R, and found that the voltage was within spec. I remember THAT it was working correctly. The fact that I didn't write down the voltage does not mean I just believe it was functioning. It was functioning, I tested it. I don't remember my cholesterol data from my last metabolic draw, but I remember my doctor told me I had nothing to worry about.
The system wasn't charging when I bought the bike in October, I tested the stator then, found it wasn't out of spec then, decided it was worth $20 to try an R/R, it showed up, I replaced the R/R, tested the voltage, it tested at a voltage that is appropriate for this bike (I don't remember what the voltage is, but it was within spec), I took it for a ride, it died, I tested it and found it to read just under 12v while running, I found and fixed the problem with the Furukawa QLW connector, assumed that was the problem (because it was a grounding issue), replaced the R/R with another $20 used OEM unit, assumed I had fixed the problem, drove it for 15 minutes, and when I brought it home it was not charging.

Your pointing out that I don't know if it was charging when I left is entirely correct, but again, Occam's razor says that the symptoms I am having with R/R #3 are caused by the same problem that killed R/R #2 (and #1), so from a troubleshooting perspective, there isn't a problem accepting that the R/Rs are dying as fact.

The fact that they ran for 15 mins, really suggests to me that they weren't EVER working properly and you were just draining your battery while riding - 15-30 mins is about average to discharge with a system that is not charging and running solely off battery.

Right, the frustrating part of this is: with the bike sitting, right after replacing the R/R (again, after installing R/R #2 for certain, and most likely also after installing R/R #3), the **** thing was charging correctly. I know it was. I tested it. It was working. Your statement being true and the system killing R/Rs are not mutually exclusive. Something is killing the R/Rs. Replace it, it charges, take it out around the block, it stops charging, replace it, it charges.

Your best way around this is to replace the connector and re-terminate onto the wires - you will need a proper crimp tool for those terminals to ensure you have an adequate connection (after crimping, I typically additionally solder the joint to be sure it indeed has a perfect connection - important to use a relatively high wattage iron however as these are big wires and terminals!)
Furukawa QLW Series Motorsport Connectors - Corsa Technic

You could choose to either just repair the OEM wire with new terminal, or make up a new 'ground' lead direct to the battery negative (you can also do the positive, but you would have to put a fuse-older in-line adding two more connection points you would have to ensure would be stellar)

But before I did any of that, I would once again check the stator as I described and be 100% sure you do not have a failure there.
Honestly, this is my strongest suspicion as to what your problem really is.

I will purchase new connectors and replace the ones I've got, the crimp and soldering will not be an issue, I've got wiring experience. I will also test the stator again.

I appreciate your time and expertise. It is frustrating to come in and say "Hey I did x y and z per the info on r3o" and sprinkled into the responses are "did you do x?" "are you sure you did x?" "how do we know you did x?" I own a $500 multimeter. I know how to check for isolation, and I know how to check voltage. I also understand that many, many people do not do any sort of research on their own before asking for help. I am not one of those people. Your time is worth too much to me to f*cker you around. Just asking for the benefit of the doubt if you can give it.

Again, thanks a ton for your continued help, and I appreciate your communication skills (above where you preemptively pointed out that your response was going to sound curt). Forums are frustrating sometimes and overcommunicating helps a lot I've found.

Also - it's worth adding : Stator failure is pretty well documented on R3's - R/R's less so.

The R3 actually draws a fair amount of power esp if you run FAST. The faster you go the more sparks you need.

I run mostly on motorways at slightly excessive (legally) speed.
I had my system voltage drop consistently with both (then) Halogen Headlights on main beam and both 55W Halogen foglamps on when I got above 130kph (GPS).

• Below 130kph, fine.
• Switch off fogs (or lights - because I have a switch in there) , fine.
• Change all lighting to LED, fine.

So my guess is that on an R3 with accessories the shunts are actually not all that loaded. Which may explain why we see fewer R/R failure.

Also worth mentioning that earlier bikes with the CatBox get very hot near the stator which could exacerbate deterioration esp if you do a lot of slow traffic work. My catbox "fell off" officer.

I have just fitted an R3 similar Alternator to my old Guzzi - and the mfr is VERY VERY insistent about adequate cooling for the stator.

Eventually I'll be replacing everything with LEDs as well as going to the switching R/R upgrade, but for now it's clear that something ****y is happening.

My plan is to: retest the stator (with video, then have it notorized for DEcosse lol), replace the QLW connector, run a new ground and hot from the connector, test the voltage while running (this will not charge at this point because again, I know the R/R is dying and I haven't replaced it again), note the voltage, replace the R/R, test voltage again, note the voltage, drive it around for a bit, hope the ****ing thing is still charging when I land back at home, and if it isn't, I'm not sure where to go after that: either replacing the stator or running new grounds to everything come to mind.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks again for your time errbody.
Alec

 

[barbagris]

For your own peace of mind - fit a voltmeter where you can see it on the bike. Then you can see if how fast and maybe when it stops charging. I use the simple, cheap but VERY visible ones made by Andrew Ferguson Eclipse and Monsoon Battery Voltage Monitors - Waterproof Precise Durable | SparkBright

I would, in your position, be looking for a stator already. And a series (not OEM shunt) R/R. Life is too **** short to piss about.

 

[Gregger]

I use one of these from Kuryakyn. Kuryakyn LED Voltmeter

 

[Crotchburn]

K, quick update.

I have not made any changes to the configuration since my last post.

I was getting ready to replace the stator. I started the bike, and clipped up one of the little $5 harbor freight alt testers to it (like this
http://tinyurl.com/y3ehsyzx ), and the 13v light was steady, the 13.5v light would blink with each explosion in the motor, so I thought "k, not sure what's going on here, time for a ride I guess". I taped (yes taped, I'm a very classy gentleman) the unit to the handlebar and took it on a 2 mile ride. at idle it was consistently at 13v, blinking up to 13.5v, and while riding it would go constant 13.5v, and while riding around it would jump to 14v.

so... here's to hoping I was wrong on my last test, it really was charging, and gluing the grounding connector in place on the rectifier plug fixed the issue.

... If not this is a fun intermittent issue. I'll find out next time I trust that it won't fail, I'm sure.


Thanks everybody.
Alec

 

[DEcosse]

Sounds encouraging
The other part of that R/R ground wire to check is the in-line connector that goes to the battery negative main cable.